025. Do Not Suffer In Silence: Raw Reflections with Dave Smith [Part 1]

In this two-part episode of Keep the Promise, we embark on an  journey alongside our guest, Dave Smith, a firefighter from Washington DC. Dave's story is a testament to the strength, resilience, and unwavering dedication that defines the firefighting spirit.

Part 1 of this captivating series unveils Dave's early days in the fire service, beginning as a volunteer firefighter, and the path that led him to where he is today. As we traverse the highs and lows of his career, we dive into the experiences that ultimately compelled Dave to seek help through the IAFF's Center for Excellence.

In this episode, Dave shares his compelling journey towards mental health advocacy, pushing the boundaries to de-stigmatize a topic that is often shrouded in silence within the fire service. He discusses his experiences in breaking the silence, both within himself and among his fellow firefighters, and how this journey has transformed his perspective.

Stay tuned for Part 2, where we delve deeper into Dave's experiences at the Center for Excellence.

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Transcript

TJ: What's up everybody? Welcome to the Keep the Promise podcast. Today I have the honor and the pleasure of having along a good and old friend of mine. And Dave and I have known each other since. I started in the volunteer fire service back in 05 and throughout the years, we've been on quite a few adventures, a lot of misadventures.

TJ: We've raised a ton of money for charity. I mean, he pinned me when I graduated the fire Academy. So we've been kind of thick as thieves for a good long while, and he has a story that not only everybody needs to hear, but I am confident that will resonate with many of you because especially the September being suicide safety awareness month and our Really heavy focus on mental health and mental health issues within the fire service.

TJ: His story and how he overcame some obstacles in life is going to be one for you, not just to remember, but to take notes on and use as an example. So without further ado, my good friend, Dave Smith. Dave, welcome to the show.

Dave: the show. Welcome back.

TJ: Okay, welcome back. Yeah, no, we um, we had a bit of a of an issue on the on the first recording But we got a lot of stuff for reals.

TJ: I appreciate you coming out here to um to keep the promise Global headquarters in the middle of what's supposed to be a hurricane feels more like a drizzle. So Let's get started with just your Life in the fire service. Tell me when you started where you started and Where you are these days?

Dave: I started out at the Bel Air Volunteer Fire Company in summer of 2001. And as we all know, that was a extremely formative year in the fire service. Um, and that very, very much solidified my desire to, you know, be a paid fireman, a big city fireman, and applied, you know, I've applied at New York FDNY, at Baltimore, at Howard, at PG, and...

Dave: DC, you know, everywhere, and it took about six years, but finally I got hired in DC, but prior to that I Did some time at the Hyattsville Volunteer fire department in Prince George's. I was a live in there from All like winter of three to around 2007 when I got hired with a Washington DC fire department Did ten years of a On the side of a ladder truck there and then got my promotion to truck driver technician Uh been doing that for about six years now, so Coming on 17 years in the dc fire department and I'm a truck guy.

Dave: I'm bad at math. So like 20, 22 years altogether in the, in the, in the fire service.

TJ: Yeah, we, um, we met when, when I joined you. By that point, you had four years at, at Bel Air, and I think you were, you were rappelling off the side of a mezzanine with a, with a BA showing a bailout technique. I think you got in trouble for that one, for

Dave: Hey, I got in trouble for a lot of stuff, but

TJ: think we all did,

Dave: all, all fun stuff.

TJ: It was all fun. I mean, looking back at some of those people that, that we spent time with, it's, um... There are often times that I wish we could just rewind and go back to those easier, funner days. Because it was, I mean we were, we were invincible. We were just going to fires, doing fun stuff, nothing mattered.

TJ: Put stereos in the fire engines and blasted music. And then, you also cut your teeth in, in Hyattsville with some, I mean with some near dear friends of mine like Nate. And, um. And also during a time when that place was hopping.

Dave: Yeah, that, uh, first, like, six, seven months living there, uh, we, I remember the summertime. We were, yeah, summertime when guys were getting ready to kind of go home for the summer. So, you know, cause it's a lot of guys are doing there for college and stuff like that. And we went through the journals and we had like, it was like.

Dave: Sixty some good fires like not just like we didn't even count like a small room off or you know whatever it was like legit good fires and Probably like two dozen pretty good extrications. And so it was definitely a learn a whole lot really fast, which, you know, coming back to the, you know, the Bel Air fire department, that kind of made an issue.

Dave: Cause you know, you're a young guy who's been on a whole lot of incidents and a lot of people look at younger people as you shouldn't be teaching or Telling people or showing people how to do stuff because you're just a young guy, but you know, it's and that's a I mean That's a fire service culture thing in general.

Dave: It's that whole He's got less time on than me. Who should this get? you know, it's the people think that just having time in a department means that they are kind of worthy of respect or you know all that where Hey, it kind of depends what you put into it, you know, like there's people with three and five years on the job who've put a whole lot more effort and went to trainings and do stuff on their own time.

Dave: And, you know, they just haven't just collected a paycheck for, you know, 20 years. And, you know, that's, that's sorry about going on that

TJ: No, I like it because we were all on the receiving end of um, on the bad receiving end of that. We um, culturally, at least at the time, in that place, in that county, it was very frowned upon to take the initiative or to try to change things. 

TJ: Like, I remember an elected officer, which is not a promoted officer, an elected, so somebody who won the popularity contest saying that he didn't want to lay in supply lines or pull attack lines because then we'd have to re rack them.

Dave: Yeah, I like that. I mean, that was just a difference in culture. Like, you know, Living in Hyattsville if, you know, we, I mean, this was pre social media and all that, but if somebody Had taken a class or did something and came back and said, Hey, this is a new way. Some other department was talking about racking a hose line.

Dave: We would literally pull the engine out, dump the hose, move the dividers in the hose bed, rack it, pull it a couple times and then put it back the way we had it just to see if, Oh, we liked it. No, you know, like why not? Like it was a good environment to. Try stuff and you've had a lot of people from, you know, and that's a good thing with PG fire department was or the live in community was people from you know, all over the country were there like we had a guy from Alaska and a lot of guys from New York from got from Minnesota South Carolina, so just you know I kind of had a little bit of everybody there and you know a lot of career guys with different departments coming in and Um, you know, to become a career guy.

TJ: And that's so important because it lays that foundation to have That open mindedness when it goes into the fire service, it's like you said, it's easy for us to kind of go and get hired, go with the flow, collect a paycheck, just be an employee. It's different being an employee and a fireman, if that makes sense.

Dave: you I mean, it, you know, I like to say, like, I don't personally care if somebody considers it just a job. I'm fine with that. But the difference is they have to be good at that job. Yeah, like, if they're not hauling in the job and doing stuff and taking training and, you know, reading stuff and talking to people and, you know, excited about it, I'm cool with it.

Dave: But you still have to be competent at it.

TJ: Alright, if you don't, if you don't perform on the fire ground, then there's an issue. But it's those, I actually, I love... Some of those because look, trust me, gung ho, like, did all the classes, went to all the places, and I thought that was, that was, right, that's a way to become a good fireman, and there were still those people who would show up on scene after, you know, just doing the basics, and still had performing, and I was like, alright, damn, I can't say anything to these guys.

Dave: Yeah, I mean, it also feeds into after the fire department, right? Like the guys who, you know, it's an unfortunate thing, but sometimes you see it where people retire and pass away shortly after because they didn't. They didn't make a differentiation between themselves in the fire department and outside of the fire department life, like working overtime and not going to your niece's karate class or missing one of the kids, like, you know, last, last school play or football game because I could get some more money, like, you know, whatever, like that is, you're not going to get that stuff back.

Dave: Like the fire department will fill your spot. The next list, they don't care. So like having that community outside of the fire department and having important stuff in your life where it's not defining you as a firefighter, like I've had that conversation with a couple of guys who've been medically disabled or.

Dave: You know, and really struggle with it, and you know, it's, or, you know, if somebody resigns to move on to something else, I'm the first one to tell them, good luck, stay in touch, you know, reach out if you need anything. I'm not like, oh, he's a quitter, you know, fuck that guy, you know, it's, it's... Hey man, it's, it's not the end all be all, like, I love the job, I love doing it, it's given me a lot, but...

Dave: At the end of the day, it kinda is still just a profession, like yeah, you can be passionate about it, you can be great at it, you know, whatever, but, you know, it pays the bills for a lot of us, but also people, some people, people also are volunteers, which hats off to them, you know, we all, we both used to do it, but, you know, it's very important to have that, like, but even then, some of the volunteers that, you know, we know where. The firehouse is the priority over top of their family and stuff. And it

TJ: as we've seen,

Dave: it's like, it's great, but it also is, you know, it's a detriment to your life outside of that. Like when it's taken away from you, like, you know, guys have that, like, that's all I was, or that's all I'm worth, or I'm not worth anything if I'm not a firefighter and doing that and being involved.

Dave: And it's, it's very important.

TJ: it's that fine line of being proficient, but also not making it the whole identity. And I've been so lucky to talk to people like you, like my buddy Nick from up in Upper Darby, who are, I mean, Dave Angelo as well, like all, all of these very wise folks who talk about the importance of, Hey, be a good competent firefighter.

TJ: However, do not make that your whole identity because what are you going to be left with when it's gone? When you can't be riding that fire truck and going on calls? We saw I mean, we saw it all the time. There were livings and the volley houses who would get in trouble for whatever dumb thing and now They're homeless, they have nothing to occupy their time with, they don't have any place to go, anybody to be with because their entire lives had been given to a firehouse.

TJ: Just kinda sad.

Dave: well, I mean, it, it can, I mean it, that's a lot of, you know, a lot of like addiction type stuff where you're filling a void, you're doing something to distract yourself. You're doing something that occupies you, that makes you feel good. You know, some people it's alcohol, some people it's drugs, some people it's, you know, working out and being obsessive about that.

Dave: Some people it's, you know, my job and they get overly invested and tied up in it and that's their... You know, their job is their escape and it's their time off is where things are, things are weird. Where, I just, I'd rather be at work, you know, cause it makes sense at work. I know who I am at work. I'm in charge of this or I'm a lieutenant or, you know, at work I'm the engine driver here and people respect me, but at home I'm just me, you know, like it's, so some people also kind of struggle with that about like, you know.

TJ: I remember when I was at 10 with, with Nate Whitstone, um, I went through a nasty breakup and he made the comment. He's like, you're about to become one of the best employees that we have. I'm like, what do you mean? Cause you know, I had like a couple of years on and the dude's been a mentor my whole life.

TJ: He's like, dude, your home life is going to be such a mess that you're just going to be so happy and so driven when you come here. And now I found myself saying that to some of the newer folks. It's like, oh, breakup? Divorce? Cool. Like, you're about to be a firefighter of the year.

Dave: divorce. Let

TJ: talk to me about DC.

TJ: You guys are a very traditional department. One thing that I admire

Dave: career. So

TJ: is that you've been at the same house your entire career. It's unheard of for us. Well, I have that information down here, plus there's my camera. Oh, no kidding. But yeah, my part

Dave: Teaching at the academy for, you know, recruit classes and also like in service companies and stuff, but for the recruits, you know, I always am kind of telling them, especially when it's kind of towards the end of graduation, that it doesn't matter where you're gonna get assigned to, buddy. Like, just you know, whether it's a quote unquote cool firehouse or it's a quote unquote bad firehouse, that's irrelevant.

Dave: Like, it's, you can be at a slow station and enjoy every minute of your 24 hours Or you can be at a busy station and hate working there because you just don't gel with the co workers or it's just not You know, there's personality conflicts or whatever so, you know being around good people makes a huge difference like Enjoying time with your co workers Enjoying what you do being excited to go to work Matters, you know versus you know, quote unquote a cool house or whatever and you might not have a you know, it might not enjoy it And then, you know, once probation's over, you can put your transfer form in if it's not working for you, but like, don't, don't get all upset if, plus there's like no rhyme or reason to it, it's not like, I think like the top person in our class got sent to one of the like, holy crap, you went to that firehouse, you know, like there, there, yeah, there, there's no like, Picking and choosing where people are going like that.

Dave: So that's another ebb and flow. Sometimes you can request people, sometimes they just plug them in wherever and there's no, no say to it. Um, but yeah, you know, my firehouse when I got there, it was, it was a lot of, uh, I mean, it was easy cause we had borders with, uh, Montgomery and they were right kind of, we have, we're kind of a Northern border company, so we have.

Dave: Kind of the street grid system goes out into Hyattsville. So I kind of knew a lot of the streets pretty much, and it kind of made sense. And it was more or less the way PG operated was similar to how DCS was basically just like, all right, I'm getting paid to do this. Um, you know, like, but when I got there, like the, they didn't have a company patch.

Dave: There wasn't, you know, there was not a whole lot of, you know, pride in the house. So like, I just, you know, kind of, Bided my time a little bit. And then as I had a little bit more time on, you know, Hey, came up with the company patch, you know, Painted, you know, try to keep the tools painted and tried to, uh, to do stuff.

Dave: Like when I got my driver job, I gave everybody in the company a little, you know, uh, helmet sticker, the patch and, you know, car decal and stuff just to kind of like force some guys, you know, kind of

TJ: esprit de corps 

Dave: not force it, but to like, Hey, now you have this, go ahead and do it. Like that was something my, uh, One of my last lieutenants, uh, got me into doing was, you know, we have the, the whole shift has the same shield and we had a, you know, he said like, Hey, have, when you order one for, you know, the lieutenant order two of them and then when you get a new lieutenant.

Dave: Hey, you're here. Welcome. Here's a shield. So you look like us and it kind of gives that buy in of like, oh, these guys actually kind of care about it. And like, you know, we all have the, you know, our shift, we all have a little horseshoe on the helmet for our little adopted pony that we have that we give visit.

TJ: You know we don't have to use horse drawn fire apparatus anymore, right? You don't need to deal with horses?

Dave: Yeah, but it's

TJ: We have diesel now?

Dave: Nah, and it's like, that's one of the things like, you know, guys, guys give me a hard time about at work and it's. Uh, we just don't care. It's like, whatever, man. It's, you know, it's, it's, it doesn't bother me, but it's like, uh, you know, it started out, we were just driving, you know, checking stuff out and, you know, holy shit, there's a, there's a stable in our, in our response district.

Dave: Hmm. So we, you know, walking around and, uh, we're like, uh, So what do you want us to do if this is on fire? Cause this is like a pretty, you know, there's 40 some horses. There's a big, uh, you know, hayloft and everything. And it's like kind of in the woods. And it's like, this is a kind of a unique hazard for big city firefighting.

Dave: So let's, you know, so, you know, kind of form a relationship with them. And then it just got to be, we're like, it's a nice day. Let's just swing by, get pet the ponies and. Hang out for a little bit, you know, there's little kids having camps and riding lessons and stuff and you know, get out of the firehouse, drive around, do some fun stuff and so we try to pop in every once in a while and we got our little sugar free treats because the One of the horses is diabetic.

Dave: So I'll make sure we have the sugar free I didn't even know horses could

TJ: I was just gonna say bro,

Dave: Yep

TJ: I grew up in a third world country where we had all those, you know, horses, animals, stuff like that. Never knew. Never knew that.

Dave: Um,

TJ: So what's the name of the pony?

Dave: Uh, that's my girl Nutmeg.

TJ: No, I was gonna, I was gonna say chestnut. I knew it had some, some sort of close.

Dave: But uh, Uh, yeah, so, I mean, Going back to a career in D. C., It's, you do, Be as a, Backstep, so, Engine companies, that's a, one of those D. C. tradition things, backstep, you know, refers to the engine company, because you used to ride on the tailboard of the engine, so that was the back step of the wagon.

Dave: If you're assigned to a truck company, you're called, you're on the side of the truck company, because they used to ride on the side of the, you know, the trailer of the tiller truck. They used to just kind of hang out and sit up on there and sit on the side and hold on. So that's kind of one of those, like, terminology things.

Dave: And like we do, uh... You know, people get pretty adamant about if you call it a fire station, people get really mad about that because it's a firehouse. Cause, and like, and then, you know, like I was told my one engine driver, my engine driver, we had a conversation about that. And I was like, good. Terminology does matter to an extent.

Dave: Cause like a fire station is a place you work at. A fire house is a place you live. So you have pride in where you live because it's your house. Stuff like, you know, he'd say, like, oh, we're doing chores. I'd be like, nah, we're doing housework. It's not chores, it's housework because we're cleaning our house up.

Dave: You know, and like, stuff like that. Like, you know, some of those little terminology things. And like the, uh, You know, we call it, we take runs, we don't take calls. And that's a utility rope, not a rope hose tool. And there's a lot of like the old timers will really kind of flip their wig.

TJ: It's very culturally ingrained.

Dave: yeah.

Dave: Cause there's a lot of that, like, this isn't the county, you know, they don't, cause you know, like they'll, they'll yell at you if you use terminology from other departments and

TJ: You're like, I didn't even know that was from a different department, bro. I'm trying my best.

Dave: right. Um, so you also, you're, uh, When you're a fire, just a firefighter, you also have to do, you know, you're like most people, you're an EMT and a firefighter, so you're doing the ambulance rotations, and I did, when I first got along was when they first kind of really started changing some stuff and adding some units, and we did four months stints on the ambulance, which was just brutal, and by the time that four months was over, if you were on there with your best friend, by the end of it you were just Hating his guts because it's just four months of a transport unit in a, you know, big city.

Dave: It was just like Don't make anybody miserable Then they backed it down to like three months and it became one month and it was however you guys want to split it up so Yeah, you spend your time. Yeah, it's I Mean that's kind of fire service in general unless you're lucky enough to be in a place that doesn't have to do that Good for you, that's awesome.

Dave: But most big cities are kind of going to that model, or most apartments, because they get more bang for their buck by not just paying you to be a fireman. Uh, well, let's see. Yeah, so

TJ: And you're on a tiller truck, right?

Dave: except for the tower ladder, and then

TJ: I love it. We only have one.

Dave: DC.

TJ: going to a couple more.

Dave: Yeah, everybody gives the tower a hard time.

TJ: Why?

Dave: I don't know.

TJ: Is that one of like Midnight Express? Is that what they

Dave: Yeah, down by the White House. They're good dudes though. I mean, it's a good resource. It's just fun to give them a hard time because they're like the stepchild of the department that they don't have a tractor drawn like everybody else. but and so, you know, they kind of have the advantage of their like automatically on all second alarms and, you know, they say kind of show up on all the fires.

Dave: So a

TJ: I was gonna say,

Dave: of a lot of people get mad that they just kind of like, Oh, there's the tower. I don't wonder why they're here. Like, it is kind of, Hey, it's a fire. Let's go, you know, and just start heading that way.

TJ: Have they ever shown you up like positioning wise when you show up and you're like, fuck,

Dave: No, I mean, we're, we're far enough away from them where we'd never really run. One time, I think number one shift, some, for some reason they were like in our area and ended up like first do on something. And I was like, cause I saw pictures and I was like, why the hell is a tower ladder in front of that building?

Dave: And there's no explanation. Um, so at about 10 years, my truck driver retired or now, I'm sorry, he resigned, which is crazy. Cause he only had. Five years left to go.

TJ: Did you call him a shitbag when he resigned?

Dave: No, we desperately tried to tell him to do this five years. Just keep doing it. But at that point he had already had 30 years in the fire service because he worked at Fort Meade or Belvoir or something before that. Yeah. And I think he was just done with it. Studied, got his spot. That was a, that was a whole process.

TJ: I remember that.

Dave: At the time, it's changed a bit, but at the time it was, you know, so you take, uh, in D. C., you're expected to pretty much know your first two front and back, so you gotta, you know, the test is, uh, you know, we have an information book that's every street, an intersection, apartment building, number, um, Verbatim, like, left here, right there, left there, to the box, the short streets, like, the smaller streets, the breakup, like, where they start, where they end, what's it between, and there's just like, here's a blank line, this is this street, draw all the streets that intersect with it or go through it, you know, by memory, so, it's a pretty hard test, uh,

TJ: And it's done in house, right?

Dave: yeah, so that one's done in house, uh, the current technicians and the kind of, you Give the captain a bunch of stuff, then he formulates it, and puts it down, and I mean it'd take, unless you've got a photographic memory, you know, I'm, I'm an idiot, so, I can, I can learn anything if I lock myself in a room and make myself study for, you know, six hours a day, so, and practice, and, you know, that, and like my old truck driver had told me, he's like, cause I, you know, I'd taken a couple tests before that, but just never did good, you know, never really put the effort in, and he had said, you know, hey, I, uh, The person who wants it the most will get it.

Dave: So, you know, if you're not studying while you're in the bathroom, deleting, you know, the social media app off your phone and replacing it with a study app, and, you know, while football's going on, you should be in the back of the room studying, and, you know, flashcards. And, like, when I was on the ambulance, I was sitting there in the hospital parking lot doing stuff.

Dave: So it's... You know, and like, you know, looking back, I remember, you know, a lot of, you know, guys I really respect now that are, were drivers or officers and they've moved up since then or were very like, yeah, you're going to get that spot because they could just see like, you know, you're sitting there drawing, you know, by memory on the, on the Sharpie, all the streets in the area and the apartment building numbers and all that.

Dave: Then I, then I went to, after that you go to the training school and it's a written test on like 15 different manuals and at the time it was a 30 question test, which is ridiculous because that's like four questions wrong, you failed. So you pass that, then you go outside and it was a cone course that was very, it was...

Dave: And it still, to this day, frustrated me because it's like the only thing in the fire department that was zero tolerance, pass, pass, or fail. Like if the bulge of your tire touched a curb or the black part of the cone on the ground, you failed. And it was, you know, you're always supposed to have a backer.

Dave: 90 percent of the test was backing up. And you couldn't stop and readjust. So it was like, like doing the serpentine, it was like. You can't stop and pull forward. It's got to be in one shot and one shot only and

TJ: Oh man. 

Dave: so I'm not gonna get the reason I failed the first time

TJ: Yeah, yeah, let's let's not let's not bring up that that painful 

TJ: past. 

Dave: Second time it was we had a reserve for like three four months And like the day before the test they said oh you got to use a Truck that's similar to yours. So I had to go like pick up a different ladder truck that morning And heading out, the guy said, Hey, if you have a chance, uh, Officer's side tire's low, so that's why the ball just sticking out extra.

Dave: So, of course, that ball just touched a curb as I was coming around something. And, you know, so third time I got it, but definitely was a, uh, definitely was a challenge because, you know, and, you know, I remember our captain, you know, kind of gave me. Some encouraging words. Cause he's like most guys, but it was just, because if you fail there, everything resets, he posted it.

Dave: Everybody has three weeks to, you know, three weeks to study again, take the test again, then a month. Uh, it's like, you just reset the whole process. So it was like all together, like eight, nine months of just nonstop studying. And I'm like, God damn it. Go back to the books, study for this, this part again.

Dave: All right. Study for this part again. All right. Get down there for driving again. And so, uh,

TJ: What I think going back to what he said, it's important for everybody listening to understand that it applies That whoever wants it the most is going to get it like you are guaranteed to fail Like it's just a matter of how you recover from that and what you use to push you Because I was on the same boat as you flashcards and the ambulance, you know, I'm sitting there.

TJ: I had gotten moved from What I thought was my cushy assignment being Mr. Badass Cool Guy to now writing a BLS unit way more than I had in my entire life and hating every second of it, depending on who I had as a partner. And it was that conversation I had to have with myself of like, how badly do I want it?

TJ: Like, is this... Am I just going to be angry at my situation or can I use that to overcome and to move on to something more? And I too failed my first test and it was like a legit, a legit screw up. It was on the practical and I think we had like 30 people take the test and when the results came up I was number 77 out of 30 mathematically.

TJ: Like after all the scores got tallied that's how badly I did the first time. And it was, right, the two year wait, and you have that sort of like, that weight on your shoulders, you're like, alright, I can't, can't screw up again, like, same scenario, you're, all those failures are in the back of your head, and it's um, that's when you have to just like, put your head down and,

Dave: and

TJ: and say, hey, do I want this bad enough, or do I want that past failure to get to me?

Dave: Yeah. I mean it's, it's. Definitely stressful and, you know, like, uh, like with teaching at the academy, I, I try to input a little bit of the stuff I've learned with the recruits about because they do for their practical exams, they're evaluated by kind of like a third party evaluator.

Dave: So there's like instructors and then there's guys who give the tests.

TJ: But within the department, not

Dave: Yeah, like, like, some, some people do both, but there's kind of like, the guys who teach, then there's the guys who come down for eight hours, sit there with a tablet, and check yes or no. But they also, they also GoPro videotape you while you're doing it.

TJ: oh, what's up? Okay.

Dave: So I'm like, that's... a pretty stressful environment for somebody that like a guy that you don't know is standing there with a camera and all he's doing is reading this thing and if he's there's no wiggle room for them it's like the sheet says this you failed period so you know trying to help them it's like hey man you know just before you do it you know psych yourself up do some mental preparedness like think about what you're gonna do you know talk to yourself if you need to you know like because that that that stuff does really improve performance if you actually kind of visualize and do stuff like I remember for My last uh test out at the school for the driving course.

Dave: I got there early and literally Walked the course pretending I had a steering wheel Like

TJ: Oh, yeah, visualizing it.

Dave: I was in the truck, like a walk to the course, pretending how I'm going to turn the wheel on what I'm looking like the entire course, like, I was like, all right, that's what I got to do. And like, and like you said, with flashcards and stuff too, that was, uh, that was a big one about, you know, how people learn.

Dave: Like if anybody has a chance to take instructor one course, because well, to me, it depends how it's given or who it does, but like the learning, how to learn. And how, how people learn is super important because some people flashcards are worthless as shit, but that's the standard issue fire department solution for everything is just flashcards, make flashcards, study flashcards.

Dave: And some people don't learn that way. So learning that like, Hey, that's not going to work for me. I need to write it down. I need to, you know, do whatever. So you kind of learn like, Hey, because like the first area test, I messed up because I got so in the tune of flashcard bang, bang, bang, bang, bang. When I went to write it down, I was just banging my bang.

Dave: I didn't think about, you know, like I failed by like two points and there was like four things. It was like, Hey, you were a hundred percent right. But where the street starts and where it ends matters. You just put. All four of things down in the wrong spots. So it's like, I can't give you the, the question because you put the wrong street in the wrong spot.

Dave: So like I slowed it down and actually like rode stuff out, draw drew little pictures of it instead of just hitting flashcards and you know, over and over and over. Well, and

TJ: and in the topic of learning, it's also important to realize that your learning style might change as the time goes on. I didn't touch flashcards until I got into the fire service until I took that test. High school, college, all those like.

Dave: I

TJ: just sit there, take notes, highlight. And sometimes I was lucky enough that I was able to read the book and understand it.

TJ: Hell, even through the Academy. It wasn't until I got to a driver's test that I had to kind of randomize the thing. And who knows if I go for anything else, I might have to change how I do things. Maybe it's going to be, I don't know, maybe like record myself if I'm doing some sort of interview. Like it's, the important part is don't just.

TJ: Assume there's only one way to do it, and if you don't do it well, don't beat yourself for it. If you can't do flashcards, maybe you do notes. If you can't do notes, then maybe highlight. Like, whatever works for you, but just, just try it. Because it is ultimately what you want, and it's gonna, it's gonna get you there.

TJ: But, we have... God, we could do an entire learning episode on, on how to get promoted.

Dave: alone.

TJ: Let's dive into the reason we are here and that is the Center for Excellence. You were the first person that out of my circle of friends that I've ever known who, who spent some time there. And we're going to go into the whole journey of getting there, um, the time that you spent there and, and coming back out. was there one incident, like, was there a, like, hands down, this is what did it that you said, Oh shit, I need help. Or was it a constant build up over 20 plus years in the fire service that got you to the point that you're like, Ooh, I should talk to somebody.

Dave: 20 plus years in a fire service that got you to the point where you were like, Ooh, I should have called this off. You know, standard issue, fire department solution of just stuff it down and don't think about it for, at that time, 18 years. And when, you know, the dam broke, it was 18 years worth of stuff it down, don't deal with it, that had built up, that all kind of came out at one time.

Dave: So, you know, there was, you know, red flags before that, that I ignored, that, you know, probably most people would, you know. Sleeping too much, not sleeping enough, drinking, and you know, just getting anxious about stuff. Like one that I found out later that was like, hey, you know, that's not normal, right? Was like getting really anxious about not being in a driver's seat.

Dave: Like even with, you know, the ex wife, you know, like if she was driving, I was like, I mean, whatever. You know, whatever. But. For almost anything, like, I just was not comfortable not being in control and they're like, hey, you know, that's not a normal thing. I was like, oh, really? Um,

TJ: Yeah, you can't be a passenger princess if you're being anxious about being in the passenger seat

Dave: Right, and like, uh, Uh, let's see, so it was New Year's Eve of 2018 when I went in, so that, during that year I had, uh, Finally, you know, went to, finally got the divorce finalized.

Dave: That didn't, didn't take a whole long. That was fairly amicable, pretty, pretty easy process. But, you know, still, it was just kind of a... Alright, now what? You know, it's a, it's a rough process, even if it is amicable. Even, you know, even if it's, you're not married and you're just breaking up with somebody, there's always that kind of like, fucking, you know, you...

Dave: Replay in your head, you have, you know... Especially, you know, the marriage stuff, like, you know, regret, did I do the right thing, am I good enough, I mean, whatever, so you have that, so you know, the also kind of standard solution to most of our problems is I'll just put in for a bunch of overtime, and kind of involve, you know, more teaching, and just busy, busy, busy, I don't, I'm not taking off, I'll just dive into work, You know, I've seen these guys who've, you know, split up before, miserable as shit to be around the firehouse with, so I'm not going to be that guy.

Dave: I'm not going to tell anyone, I'm not going to talk about it to anybody. I'm just going to suck it up. Um, so that was kind of added some stress to things that I wasn't really thinking about.

TJ: Dude and I remember I felt so bad because you had taken this much anticipated trip out west in July of 2018 and I mean this is something that that I'm always gonna cherish and I'm always gonna be thankful for because you cut it short and you were there and at Nate's memorial like it was one like I looked over and I saw you in class A's and I was like, oh my god, he's back, like, he made it back, um, and while I do, like, eternally appreciate that, I know it must not have been easy because of all the shit that you have been dealing with and stuffing down for so long, finally having that chance to go out in nature where I know you love and I know you enjoy spending the time and then being like, nope, pack everything up and head back east to um, to go attend a fireman funeral.

TJ: Um,

Dave: Yeah, I mean, so that kind of that adds that ties into when I was at the center of, you know, a lot of people in this job, you know, we're here for a reason because we want to help people. We want to be there to support people where we'd like to be the person to solve problems. to, you know, help others to, you know, there's a reason why a lot of firemen are in codependent toxic relationships because we're, we're helpers and we, we see, uh, you know, whether it's a fire or a dumpster fire, we are drawn to it.

Dave: If you understand what I mean,

TJ: Yeah, I feel like you're taking shots at me. Jesus Christ. I'm sitting right here, bro.

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Dave: Um, so, you know, I was just kind of, huh, this is what you're supposed to do, this my boy, you know, there's a, I know a bunch of guys in Howard, somebody died, so, you know, hey, head on back. Um, now while I was out there, and, you know, cutting it short, got a, got a flight to come back, I stayed in Vegas for one night, which, I hate Vegas, it was hot as could be. But I'm also kind of a nerd, and they had a, uh, like Avengers, uh, theme park attraction kind of deal, so I wanted to go check that out. And, like, the one thing, you know, to start the trip, you, like, go on this thing, but then, like, the, it's almost like a sea crate sized thing, and then, like, the pretend door is, like, shut and seal you in there, and then they have some little thing on the display screen, and, like, I remember just, like, It's really tensing up and getting just super nervous and like getting by the exit or by the door like getting ready to freak out and uh, you know, a little attendee in their little pretend Marvel outfit or whatever was like, dude, you all right?

Dave: I'm like, how long is this thing? He's like, it'll be over in like 30 seconds. I'm like, okay. And then like, I just like ran out in front of the crowd and got away from everybody and Yeah, that was a big red flag that I was just like, oh man, that was weird. All right, no problem.

TJ: on.

Dave: Um, a few months after that we were in a metro tunnel walkthrough down in DC.

Dave: So, You know, you start at one station, the guy takes you down, we go over all the stuff, you go down, like, along the side of the track, there's, you know, I don't know, for the guys studying for sergeant, they could tell you exactly how many, but it was like a foot and a half walkway on the side.

TJ: But it's tight.

Dave: Yeah, so like, you know, a train comes by, everybody put your back up against the wall, because if you're sticking out, it's going to smack you, so it's kind of that tight. And I remember the, the, before we started heading down, I remember the, the guy said, Hey, you know, if this stuff makes you uncomfortable, you can stay at the peace. No big deal. And I'm like, whatever, you know, went down. I've been in tunnels before, you know, back when I was in PG, we used to go down pretty often and drill around at the Metro and drill did like they'd smoke up the pretend track and train and.

Dave: But, you know, I got about 200 feet in and just palms were sweaty. I was kind of anxious, like I was sitting there like holding on to my Tillerman's arm, you know, pressed up against the wall and like, and looking back, like, or, you know, when I started evaluating, it wasn't that I was in a tunnel. It was that I was like in the middle of a group that I wasn't on the end, the either end that like I could get out of here if I needed to.

Dave: And. You know, afterwards, like that, you know, and when I talked to my lieutenant, you're, you know, no, the next year he's like, yeah, I thought you were fucking with us. Like pretending that you were freaking out. And I was like, cause like, you know, we've got to like the first little like emergency stairwell shaft.

Dave: I was sitting there looking at freedom. Like, can I just leave? And the guy's like, he's like, no, you can't just open the gate and do the emergency exit in the middle of the mall in DC. I'm like, I need to get the fuck out of here. And I was like, all right. Um, again, another big red flag that I was just like, huh, alright.

Dave: That was weird. Um, so something that never used to bother you that all of a sudden does. That's a big red flag. Don't just brush it off.

TJ: Yeah, pay 

TJ: attention to it. Right. 

Dave: that's an, important one to kind of remember from that journey. Uh, let's see, and around Thanksgiving, I think it was, yeah, like Thanksgiving, I was heading to a, uh, friend's house for a little get together, and I was driving, and it just crushed me, because it was a little, uh, like a dog ran out.

Dave: You know, I wasn't on the phone, wasn't texting, wasn't doing, not paying attention. I just cornered my eye, saw something, tried to swerve. Ended up, you know, hitting somebody's dog and killing it. And like, it just tore me up because, you know, I've had my little dog for 13 years now. And it's been my little partner in crime.

Dave: And, you know, going on trips and always hanging out. And, you know, I know how much my dog means to me. So it just tore me up that, you know, it was me that, you know, took it from somebody. But, uh... You know, then it also kind of messed me up because, you know, going through divorce and all that stuff and kind of getting treated like shit. Here's this family that I just, you know, killed their, their dog, their best friend, and they were like... Give me a hug, asking me if I needed to come inside, if my truck was okay, if, you know, they needed me to call somebody, like, they were just like the most gracious, kind, nice people, and it just, it just messed me up, because it was like, here I am.

Dave: You know, somebody I was married to, and supposed to, you know, supposed to be that, was... Flipping out on me because I didn't put the dishes in the right spot and, you know, stuff like that. And here's this complete stranger showing me empathy like that. I just, it just really kind of messed me up. So kind of probably about a month after that, uh, this was the first time I had taken leave and like a year and a half where I just took time while I didn't have like, a day off, but I'm going to do this, this and this, or I'm working, you know, whatever. And it got towards the end of that, this was like mid December, it got towards the end of that, that leave time, and I didn't have something to do, and I just kind of had dead time. And, working out, and, got really like lightheaded about, I was lifting or doing something, and, you know, like everybody, when you're lifting, if you aren't breathing right, or you lock your legs or something, and you can, Kind of get a little woo, get a little woozy. Uh, you know, it happens before it happens, whatever. But just that particular time, it just set me into like a full blown panic. And, like, like full on panic. I looked at my heart rate thing later on and it talked about, uh, I don't know, one of the EMS nerds said it was a vasovagal, or vagal response,

TJ: Oh yeah, you bagel down.

Dave: One of those terms, but

TJ: Truck guy.

Dave: it, it sent me into a like full on panic attack.

Dave: I'd never had one before in my life. And you know, it's a very like, Holy shit, Holy shit, Holy shit. Your amygdala is fired up. Your fight or flight's kicking in. You're had all these thoughts going through my head about, all right. If you, if you pass out, you're gonna be laying on the floor. Probably like pitch your pants.

Dave: Everybody's going to stare at you. Somebody's going to take a picture and put it on tick tock. They're going to call nine one one. I know people that work in the Baltimore County fire department. They're going to show up. It's going to be super embarrassing. You know, it's going to be all these red flags.

Dave: It's going to, so like, luckily that year, I had been helping teach a, uh, like an SCBA confidence course. So we, you know, I've given this speech, you know, 60 times about, you know, setting. The, you know, confidence in your brain and all the stuff and like, you know, doing like setting small goals and Hyping yourself up and talking yourself through it and don't you know, just hey, I'm gonna get to that bench All right, I'm gonna get to the locker room.

Dave: I get my stuff. I'm gonna get back out to that bench I'm gonna get to the door. I'm gonna get to my truck

TJ: So you have those small goals and those like little achievable victories that you could kind of, I don't want to say bypass your, your brain, but be like, listen, I know we're in a panic state, but next goal bench. Okay. Breath. Next goal, locker room. And at least you, you might not be running towards success, but you're at least crawling and moving slowly, but you are moving.

Dave: Right. And, you know, like I was thankful I had, you know, had that class, you know, I'd helped, I had given that spiel so many times it was like just immediately kind of defaulted to. And that's why, you know, we teach it for SCBA failures and stuff too. Like, Hey, something is bad. You can go 20, 30 seconds without air.

Dave: You have time to try to solve this problem. You got to think about it and slow yourself down. And, uh, you know, we've talked to guys who've survived near flashovers. It's like, how'd you get out? And it's like, I didn't try to get out. I tried to get to that door. That's all, you know, like I tried to get to that door and then down that hallway and then to there.

Dave: You know, like I wasn't thinking about getting out of the building. I was just trying to get five feet each time. you know, have this panic attack, get to my truck, get home, you know, freak the hell out cause never had one before. And you know, at that point you're, you know, you're amygdala, your fight or flight response is super hyper activated.

Dave: You're kind of, um. I contacted, uh, uh, one of the guys from Rescue Squad 2 that we run with on our shift. Uh, and thankfully, a few months before that, he had openly said that, you know, he wanted to go see a therapist because he was having some, some issues and stuff and, you know, it helped him out a lot. So, it was a guy that I knew, that I trusted, that I respected, who had said, hey, I went and got some help because I was, you know, had some stuff going on.

Dave: So I called him. He gave me the, you know, the number of the therapist, called him right away. Try to, all right, we'll get you in the next day. Cool. Um, then getting to the therapist, it was definitely one of the hardest things I've ever done. Uh, because know, it's just, and people, the brains are, brains are dumb, man.

Dave: Like I got out of the truck. I got to the sidewalk and I, I, it was like my legs were concrete. There was an invisible fence. I couldn't, I couldn't move another step. Uh, it was just, I couldn't get any further. So I went back out to my truck, called up there. Uh, the therapist actually came out to my truck and stood there.

Dave: It was like 10 degrees out, but he just stood there and kind of... He chatted with me and eventually, it took him about an hour, but he kicked me up into the place and just, you know, told me stuff like, Hey, you know, sip some water. That'll help. You know, if you're sipping water, your brain's like, all right, well, it can't be in that much danger if you're drinking water.

Dave: All right. Try that. And you know, but one of the things that kind of got me out of the truck was he said, uh, what do you think is going to happen up there? And I'm just like, I have no idea. It's terrifying. I don't know what's going to happen up there. I'm like, I, I'm afraid you're going to like hit a button and guys are going to come in with a, you know, uh, you know,

TJ: The straight jacket and put you in a padded room, 

TJ: one flew over the cuckoo's nest,

Dave: I don't know. And he's like, dude, we're just going to talk. That's it.

TJ: dude. And if we can pause right at this point, because you touched on it when you talked to the rescue to guy and that sort of crazy expectation that we have that we're going to be ridiculed taken away. That's why it's so important. To, as my friend Stacks says, just fucking talk. Just talk about it. When I started going to therapy back in 2014, and it was kind of annoying because she's like, Oh yeah, I'm diagnosing you with, um, failure to cope.

TJ: I'm like, God damn it, I sound like such a snowflake right now. But, I was very open about, I'm seeing somebody, I'm talking to somebody, like I go to a dentist. I go to an orthopedist. I get my yearly physical. Why the fuck wouldn't I talk about my brain in the hopes that somebody like you might have listened and been like, you know what?

TJ: It is okay. It is okay to talk. It is okay to seek that help. And it is okay to think that the, you know, Attendants with the straitjacket are gonna come in and then get past that and realize that we're the ones doing the work But it is okay to do that work

Dave: you know, that. That first time, I was like, alright, cool, you know, I'll be able to do this, and he, you know, gave me some stuff, and You know, I figured, alright, I can just, I'm a fireman, I did one session of therapy, I can figure it out, I don't need to do this shit anymore, so, you know, I like, white knuckled it, and like, you know, like I said, my amygdala was freaking out, I was having this fight or flight response, hardcore, like, walking inside a gas station was difficult.

Dave: Being around people, difficult. Uh, I needed to get groceries, like, you know, like it took me like, two hours to like, walk into the store. Alright, I gotta get back in my truck. Alright. Walk down an aisle. Alright, I gotta get

TJ: And your defense getting groceries is pretty fucking annoying.

Dave: Yeah, one of my ultimate tests was walking through Wegmans. Cause that,

TJ: Oh God,

Dave: yeah.

Dave: Um, But, you know, it was just, And, uh, then I was like, alright, well, I'm handling it, I'm handling it on my own, I'm a fireman, I can, I can do this. And,

TJ: is talking to that one therapist,

Dave: just the one time, you know, whatever. And then, I went to... Or then I was like Christmas Eve and I was like, Oh, I'm just, all right, maybe I just needed to be at home.

Dave: I'm still kind of amped up and freaked out, you know? And so,

Dave: all right, I there's gotta be, gotta be over in a few days. Like, there's no way this is gonna, gonna be a thing. So. I think I'd like went to urgent care and he gave me some like Xanax or something or like,

TJ: Guys what's up, bro? I Was

Dave: all right, well, I can handle it. But I have this and it was like, well, you know, you're not really supposed to drive or do that when you're on those.

Dave: Like, all right, whatever. Um, but so I get a sick call and Christmas Eve, which is a. Terrible,

TJ: say probably the worst time

Dave: terrible decision because I got there hour early and there's already about 30 people in line and by the time they opened the doors, it was like 80, 90 guys because you know, cough, cough, everyone magically got sick that day.

TJ: Yeah, dude. Pre COVID. Pre Christmas COVID.

Dave: Then, uh, you know, so I'm in this little room, like, you know, 80 people standing there. I got my little number and I'm like sweating, pacing, trying to like hide myself in a corner and I looked over and one of the kids who, I think he had like two years, three years on the job at that time, he was one of my The engine probationer, but one of the younger kids that I had and I told him when he first like first day like hey, man You know, you're gonna see stuff that's gonna mess you mess with you.

Dave: No shame in getting help. No shame in talking to anybody You know, I'm not gonna judge you. No big deal. It's important And here's just kind of staring at me I'm staring at me And while I'm sitting there, they're freaking out and he walked over and was like, Hey dude, you, you, you all right? And I was just like, fuck.

Dave: Like he called me, you know,

TJ: Yeah, he caught 

Dave: he like didn't, you know, he didn't call me out or anything, but it was just like, I can't be a fucking, I can't be a

TJ: Right, you gotta practice what you

Dave: know, I'm like, I hear, it just hit me that I'm just like, I told this kid, if he's having problems, it's not a big deal to talk to somebody.

Dave: And here I am trying to bullshit my way through. I'm not having a problem. Um, You know, so on top of that, uh, that hypervigilance and stuff like that, I was, uh, I was also dealing with some like, uh, Some flashbacks and pretty like vivid, terrible flashbacks of things I hadn't thought about and had stuffed down, you know, 17, 18 years prior to that.

Dave: So it was... Pretty freaking me out. Like, you know, you're sitting there in bed, curled up in a ball, tense, having a vivid flashback about, you know, nasty fire with, you know, burnt up kid, you know, 18 years ago that you had you had that until then had talked away and never thought about. So I go in and I'm sitting there, you know, again, kind of.

Dave: Rocking back and forth like a crazy person, you know, sweating and the lady comes in and, you know, this is her 30th, you know, oh, my tummy hurts. Okay, here's a day off and she walks in. She's like, Oh, what's going on? I'm like, uh, yeah, my stomach and she like looks up from her paperwork and sees me like sitting there sweating and like, you know, clenching my hands like freaking out.

Dave: She's like, uh, You sure that's all that's wrong with you young man? I'm like, God damn it. No, no, uh,

TJ: Caught again.

Dave: I'm fucked up. I need to, uh, I need to go talk to the behavioral health people. He's like, okay. So he gives me an appointment. And then, you know, I'm sitting in my truck like, fuck, this is it. Career's over. I'm going to go talk to the therapist. They're going to, you know, Put a stamp on it. I'm going to get, you know, handing out staplers at the logistics for the rest of my, the rest of my time, they're not going to let me do nothing.

Dave: And, uh, sweet little old lady. She's like, you know, talk to her for a little bit. And she's like, all right, well, just continue, you know, because you're a therapist again and take a couple shifts off. All right. That that's it. She's like, yeah, I thought this was like.

TJ: Where'd you fix me?

Dave: Yeah, but, but it was just like, you know, but not even that.

Dave: I was like, I thought this was like the worst case scenario was a sweet little old lady being like, okay, take a couple of days off and come back and you know, just keep seeing your therapist. All right. Like you're not going to like, you know, again, put me in a straight jacket and throw me in a rubber room.

Dave: It's like, no. Happens all the time and like, uh, but also that's something that actually pissed me off too, talking to her. Uh, one of the incidents we had that I told her about, I got. Three sentences in and she stopped me and said, Oh, I know all about that one. It's so terrible. I'm like, what? What? She's like, Oh yeah.

Dave: After that incident MPD sent all their police officers to come see us and, you know, get, put them off to go, you know, get counseling and stuff.

TJ: guys got none of

Dave: We got a person who had, you know, the four hour peer support got back, you know, before peer support actually like really did

TJ: What was it like the SISM class or

Dave: Yeah. Yeah. She had come up to the firehouse.

Dave: Got everybody in the room and said, uh, does this call bother anybody? And the, you know, lieutenant with 20 years on said, Nope, if this is something that bothers you, this job's not for you and you can't hack it. So, of course, all the guys with, you know,

TJ: Right. That's lovely.

Dave: years on are like, Uh, yeah, nothing, nothing bothers me, I'm fine, I'm just shit, you know, like.

TJ: In case you're missing the sarcasm as you're listening to this, do not ever do that. Especially if you're in a position of leadership, you do not speak for your people like that.

Dave: Uh, yeah. And, uh, yeah, so that, that one kind of, kind of frustrated me, Because, you know, oh, cool, the police. Sent all their people right afterwards and handled it and they're she's like, yeah, I still see someone about it. I'm like, huh, what do you know? so after that I went to End up seeing a different therapist because it was Christmas time and I was like, this is not working you know, I hit him up and a different guy was like on duty so I got with him and he He did the, uh, the

TJ: So The rapid eye movement stuff?

Dave: E D M R,

TJ: and so

Dave: rapid, rapid Eye, rapid Eye Movement therapy.

Dave: So that's like, it's like some voodoo magic. They do. They, they figured out that when you sleep and your, your REM sleep, when your brain's like processing everything, they like some, some scientists like saw somebody doing it at night and kind of figured out, hey, those eye movements is like a certain pattern.

Dave: So they kind of like have you sit there and like move your eyes a certain way. about this incident, you know, talk about this, you know, uh, this flashback, this image in your head, this bad thing, and it kind of really dredges stuff up, so like, it's, it's not for the faint of heart, it will drain you out, because it digs up stuff from your brain that you've been kind of suppressing, so it kind of empties it out, but at the end of it, they kind of switch the pattern that your eyes are moving, and kind of talk you through it, and kind of help you reassign Uh, or actually assign a feeling or something about that trauma or that flashback in your head or whatever.

Dave: So it kind of dumps it out, but it also helps you pack it away in a correct way. So that image kind of fades away and fades away and it's like, all right, check. I dealt with it. So it's a, it's a great tool. If there's a therapist around you that does it, definitely recommend it. You, and it seems silly, but you almost need somebody to drive you.

Dave: Because when you're done, you're gonna be just mentally just taxed like it'll drain you out The second time I did it was on my birthday on December 28th and That one worked, but it also kind of broke up in the floodgates. So like I like I went to leave, got down the stairs, which is a challenge, but like, then I was like getting out of the hallway was freaking me out.

Dave: So I went back up, crud up on the ball, sat there, so he told me like, just sleep for like an hour. But then afterwards he was like, Hey man, you, um, you really need to go to the IFF center. And he's like, you know, we can, we can do this, you know, twice a week for the next six years. I'm trying to figure all this shit out, or, you know, you really need to consider.

Dave: Just intensive kicking your, you know, kicking yourself into the deep end for, you know, a month to Untangle all this shit. And so like that's where the the center really works because it is a it's helping you You know the analogy I used or that was told me was it's like you're like I always use a reference from Christmas Vacation movie where he's got a big tangled ball of Christmas lights, and he's got Rusty trying to Untangle it and you know it's like so you're you're trying to find a broken bulb In a big tangled mess of Christmas lights because it's not just the fire service It's your whole life up until that point All the bad shit all the stuff all the things that have made you you all the things that have affected you and just one big mess And it's not easy to figure out what bulbs are broken.

Dave: So like the IFF center was something that kind of untangled the lights and showed you where it's at. You still had to do the work and you still had to continue on with it afterwards, but it just kind of helps, you know, declutter it a bit. So a little easier to find. Um,

TJ: So, you're at the point that you decide to go there. I remember that Adam drove you there. Got you taken care of. Tell me about... That initial experience, because we've talked about this before, and it's, I think it's so important because it highlights our brotherhood and why it's so important to be in a place of growth and recovery with fellow firefighters.

Dave: Um, so before I talk about that, the, uh, kind of the night before I decided to make the phone call, um, I was sitting in my parents, you know, it's Christmas time and all that. And I was just kind of sitting there by myself and. I got to, you know, I, I kind of had the realization or that, that kind of, all right, I need to do, I need to do this because, you know, I haven't, I've never had like suicidal ideations, but I 100 percent understand why people get there because when you're in that spot, when you're Brain is freaking out when you're have depression, you know, cause of this anxiety or cause of this stuff and you're just really low in that spot.

Dave: It feels like you're never getting out of it and that is your reality now and it'll never get better. And it's like I can, I can understand why some guys choose that route, you know, and it's, it's a shame. But you feel uniquely broken, you feel uniquely alone, you know, even though, like I said, I'm sitting there at my parents house with a loving family, with support, but I feel, you know, you feel like alone in the world and it's never getting better.

Dave: Even though people give a shit and people care. It's hard to... Wrap your head around that. But it's, you know, so like I said, I understand it. And DC had had two suicides or I'm sorry, they had a suicide a little bit before that. And, um, so next day got on the phone, sat there for, you know, an hour or two thinking about it.

Dave: Um, I'd had a guy from DC who had been a recent. Attendee at the center called me up and talked to me. Kind of gave me the little extra push to help me out with it. You know, called. Uh, it's a, it's a busy time of year for them, New Year's, a lot of people are, you know, the New Year's resolution kind of, all right, I'm gonna get myself fixed or, you know, as we all know in the fire service, the holidays always bring out the best in people, so it's a stressful time in general.

TJ: The jolliest time of the year.

Dave: But, uh, they were able to get me in. I had a friend of mine from Baltimore County Fire Department, uh, Adam, volunteered to drive me down there. You know, again, freaking out because I'm just, just being in a room with other people. Uh, we pull up and, you know, the first guy to meet me was, uh, he's from North Carolina.

Dave: Met me at the door. He was a firefighter. He was on, on truck 11 down there. So they, somebody had told him, oh, you know, it's like, oh, you know, when did you see another truck guy? When you walked in, you know, help you feel better. All right, then. You know, it's a, it's, it's for addiction, but it's also for mental health stuff.

Dave: So you do have to wrap your head around and if you're going in there, it's, you, you kind of have to Play the game, I guess, or just deal with the fact that, hey, they're gonna, they're gonna check through your bags and check through your stuff, make sure you're not hiding any drugs in there, make sure you're not smuggling anything, um, you know, one of the guys I was in the, like, the first, like, night or two is in, like, the nurse's station, they have, like, bunks up there, and, You know, he said when he, you could drive yourself there if you wanted to, but he, uh, he said, you know, he drove himself and he said there was a guy, you know, waiting outside the gate who told him that, you know, Hey, when you see this guy, tell him I'm out, out by this fence, you know, it was just the guy's drug dealer trying to, trying to get ahold of him to drop some drugs off to him.

Dave: So like, you know, you got to understand some, some guys are there for serious, you know, drug problems and, you know, Hey, that might not be what I'm in here for, but. Yeah. Hey, I'll play the game because this is going to help them. Uh, you know, you like your medical intake review, you know, they check in and all that.

Dave: You know, I had to excuse myself a few times to go out and get some air because, you know, being in a room and, uh, I remember that was, remember one thing that made me laugh was, uh, You know, the, one of the, like, orderlies or aides or whatever came over with the, with the, Or I guess he was a nurse, I can't remember.

Dave: But he had a, uh, Ah, whatever. He had a clipboard and he's like, He's like, hey man, do you uh, You take gummies or smoke weed or anything? And I was like, pfft. I could use one of them. Now I don't, but I'm, pfft. And he's like, I'm not offering, I'm just, there's like a trace, you know, might be a false positive, but it says marijuana.

Dave: I'm like, ah, Ah, shit, alright. Um, So, you know, I mean, it's, it's a very like, holy fuck, this is real. You know, but, you know, everybody tells you like your first day, a couple of days, like, Hey man, just, just give it a couple of days. You know, I'm sure everything I need is telling you just, I don't need this. Uh, get out of here.

Dave: Like, this is very weird. You know, you turn your cell phone and you, you know, all that stuff. Cause they don't want distractions. They don't want people, you know, calling to. Offer drugs or set up a meet or, you know, do whatever. So, you know, you get like access to your cell phone like once, twice a week. You know, you can still call from a landline or if you have kids, you know, whatever.

Dave: Obviously, they let you, you know, let them call home and do stuff. But, I, I actually really liked not having a week when they're like, you know, it's cell phone time or whatever and I went to. You know, get it and turned it on and you know, when it cycled up, it was just like notification, notification, notification,

TJ: no. I just turned it off

Dave: I just turned it off and handed it back to the lady and I'm like, I'm good. And she's like, you just got it.

Dave: I'm like, I'm good. Like, um, but you know, you're at the little nurse's sit station and like your first night and you know, everybody's kind of filing in there to get their, their pills. Like it's a assisted living home and.

TJ: of get to meet

Dave: You know, you kind of get to meet everybody and, you know, it's pretty cool. And like, they're, they're very adamant about do not suffer in silence.

Dave: If you have trouble sleeping, say something and take this pill to knock you out. You know, sleep is super important.

TJ: you who

Dave: All of you here probably have screwed up sleep schedules, probably struggle with stuff. Knock yourself out. Your brain needs to calm down and reset. So, I think, I forget what sleep thing I took, but, you know, it was like, phew.

Dave: And, like, that was a, that was a big one for me. I, I was in bed by like 9. 30 every night. One of the, like, night time supervisor, whatever they call them, people, like, at the end of it, they do, like, a little, like, Oh, yeah, remember this? And remember how you did that? And, oh, you know, whatever. And when I got to that little guy, it was like, I don't even know who you are, dude.

Dave: You were asleep every night. I never even met you. I was like, I was like, yeah, yeah, it was beautiful. Like, going to bed at 9 o'clock and waking up at 7, like, fuck, you know, for a month straight. Like, I was just like, holy shit, this is how normal people feel? Um, you know, so they, they have like three or four little like houses with a bunch of different, like I said, it's very kind of fire apartment adjacent.

Dave: They have like little, like, you know, like a house with a couple of little, like separate little bunk rooms, like three or four to, you know, however many to a little, little bunk. And, you know, you get a locker, so you bring your clothes, you know, there's a laundry machine and there's a little kitchen. Uh, you know, the cafeteria where, you know, you get three meals a day, which is awesome.

Dave: Also not having to think about what am I going to cook for breakfast? What am I going to cook for dinner? So that was a, that was a nice treat. Um, and then it's, you know, like they have individual therapy, they have group therapy, uh, they have, A lot of like kind of almost like seminars, but all their classes, but they're almost like seminars to where they, they talk, talk about a lot of different topics that are unfortunately pretty foreign to men and especially firemen, you know, like communication skills.

Dave: And, you know, it's a, might be like, you know, people might think it's like a new age hippie thing, but like, you know, like love languages and stuff like that, like how to actually say, Hey, some people

TJ: people like

Dave: don't like getting gifts or don't like this, or that's how they show their appreciation to you that they're not touchy feely, but they give you a little present, you know, like there's like different, you know, kind of all just to teach you how to like, Oh, This is how you're supposed to talk to someone else, like, uh.

TJ: you should you feel benefited you the most?

Dave: Um, I mean, definitely the trauma group. Um, one of the best classes was, uh, Lady Rami did a class on codependency. So she puts out this like questionnaire and it's like, all right, check, check everything that applies to you. It's like, all right, alright, alright. And she's like, all right. You know, raise your hand if you circled, you know, 20 of these things, a couple of guys raise their hand.

Dave: All right. What if you did 10, right? You know, rest of the people raise their hand. All right. What if you had four, a couple of guys raise it, you know, what if you only had two, you know, one or two guys raise it. And she's like, all right, if you checked any of those boxes, you're inclined for codependent toxic relationships.

Dave: It's like, Oh, and you know, just, you know, and it really broke down to like, you know, again, what most people are drawn to on the fire service is I like to help people. Um, I feel that I have to help people when I'm involved with that process. And if I'm not helping someone that I'm not worthy or like, so like we kind of are drawn to these like codependent or toxic relationships where it makes me feel good that this person needs me, you know, that kind of stuff. Um, so the, like I said, there's a lot of good, good little like, huh, all right. Uh, the trauma group was just amazing. Uh, we had. Yeah, they have, it's not as many people, it's probably like a dozen, dozen guys and girls. There's some, some ladies there. Um, most of the people there average about 15 to 20 years on, on their department and most of them were drivers and officers.

Dave: So telling me that

TJ: Um, so you the guys who have been there for a long time.

Dave: Yes. Uh, there was a handful of, you know, just a few years, but a lot of it was, you know, guys with similar time on or more

TJ: Because I remember when the center first opened up, and we as firemen liked to really cut each other down, and To shit on the new age hippie stuff, and I remember hearing a lot of the comments It was like oh, you know this new generation who can't hack it is gonna use that as an excuse not to be at work Oh, this is all just they're gonna do it to um to get a paycheck and not have to do any work So to me it's eye opening that it is That generation that was usually doing the, the bad mouthing who realized, no, we need help too.

Dave: that was, uh, there was, there was one guy there, he was only there for like a week when I first got there. 'cause he was like finishing up his time. He was, uh, retired. I have maybe a captain, I think from Baltimore County, um, great dude, but you know, and he said, he's like, I wish everyone in the fire service came through this place at some point in their career. And this should be like mandatory before retirement. He's like, I, you know, did my 30 years. Retired, got the beach house in South Carolina, and two months later, I was just on the porch, bawling my eyes out, and all the stuff that, you know, I hadn't dealt with. I'm not around the firehouse anymore, I don't have that distraction, I don't have guys, you know, to joke around with or talk about stuff with, and just everything just kind of hit me.

Dave: And, uh, we do a terrible job of preparing people for... After the fire service, or when things slow down, all that stuff. Um, so, but the trauma group specifically was excellent because it really kind of exposed that it's not, it's not necessarily the horrific thing that you saw. It's who you are as a person.

Dave: Your life experiences, what made you who you are, et cetera, et cetera, impacts your outlook or your view of the world and what you do and then yada, yada. So. Somebody who was, you know, abused as a kid or had a hard time growing up or something like that kind of over identifies themselves as wanting to protect children.

Dave: So when they see a horrific call involving a child that affects them way worse or they had this relationship or this happened to them as a child, so really kind of exposed how, you know, four people on a fire apparatus can go to go to a call and three of them doesn't even phase in one bit. I wouldn't think anything other, but one of the people on there, it might totally, you know, shake their foundation because it's something that was tied to their life or like, you know, their mentally just impacted them more than others.