026. Anxiety is a Paper Tiger: Dave Smith's Journey of Transformation [Part 2]

Welcome back to the second installment of our gripping two-part series with Dave Smith, a firefighter and mental health advocate. In Part 1, we delved into Dave's  journey from volunteer firefighter to Technician in Washington DC, exploring the challenges he faced and the pivotal moment when he decided to seek help through the IAFF's Center for Excellence.

In Part 2, we continue our captivating conversation with Dave as he takes us behind the scenes of his experiences at the Center for Excellence. Join us for an intimate look at the transformative moments that unfolded within those hallowed walls and the profound impact they had on his life.

Dave opens up about the deep connections he formed with fellow participants, sharing stories of resilience, hope, and the power of peer support. We'll learn how the Center for Excellence equipped him with invaluable tools and coping strategies that have not only helped him heal but have also guided him in becoming a beacon of hope for others within the firefighting community.

But the journey doesn't end there. Dave's passion for horseback riding and photography is a testament to his commitment to maintaining a balanced life amidst the challenges of firefighting. Discover how these pursuits have played a crucial role in his ongoing journey towards wellness and self-discovery.

We'll also revisit Dave's advocacy work and explore the progress he's made in his mission to destigmatize mental health within the fire service. As he candidly shares the highs and lows of his advocacy journey, you'll gain insight into the resilience required to confront adversity and push for meaningful change.

This episode is a powerful testament to the human spirit, the bonds that unite firefighters, and the unwavering commitment to "Keep the Promise" to their communities and themselves. Join us as we conclude Dave Smith's remarkable story of transformation, healing, and hope.

As a patron of Keep the Promise, you're not just supporting a podcast—you’re joining a community of like-minded, aggressive firefighters who want to be the best at their craft. You’ll gain access to daily workouts, weekly mindset meditations, and early access to the insights you need to stay on top of your game. Support Keep the Promise and take your place among firefighters who know that our st

Support the show

>>> Shop Keep the Promise! <<<

Get 15% off your purchase at Rescue 1 CBD with code KTP at checkout!

Learn how to make your own custom fire helmet shields with the Helmet Shield Workbook

Listen to the end for a special shout out to our Patrons!

Get the FREE guide to minimalist firehouse workouts.

Links and resources:

• Join the Keep the Promise community
• Follow us on Instagram
• Check out our sponsor TJ Leather

Transcript

Dave: Your life experiences, what made you who you are, et cetera, et cetera, impacts your outlook or your view of the world and what you do and then yada, yada. So. Somebody who was, you know, abused as a kid or had a hard time growing up or something like that kind of over identifies themselves as wanting to protect children.

Dave: So when they see a horrific call involving a child that affects them way worse or they had this relationship or this happened to them as a child, so really kind of exposed how, you know, four people on a fire apparatus can go to go to a call and three of them doesn't even phase in one bit. I wouldn't think anything other, but one of the people on there, it might totally, you know, shake their foundation because it's something that was tied to their life or like, you know, their mentally just impacted them more than others. at the time I was there, there was 45 people.

Dave: Present at the center from all over the, you know, from Hawaii to Florida to Massachusetts to Seattle. Um, the, The thing that kind of got you was like, you could relate to pretty much everyone else's story. And the big unifying factor with everybody was the isolation. You know, self isolating when they were going through, going through this, they kept kind of pulling back from other people not wanting to talk about it, trying to handle it on their own and also working, you know, work was that, so the, even though it was, you know, it's the, you know, weird dichotomy of work is the one place that makes sense to me, but it's also the thing that has caused these issues.

Dave: So You know, it's the,

TJ: that I was 16,

Dave: so, you know, we're, we, we love going to fires, we love doing that stuff, it makes sense to us, even though, you know, it might be a whatever incident with, you know, nuns and puppies jumping on the second floor with a, you know, fire tornado. Alright, that makes sense. I'm going to lay out, he's going to hook up to the hydrant, we're going to pull it, I'm going to pull a line.

Dave: We do A plus B plus C equals fire out situation resolved. Um, it's that outside of the fire department, that's where most of these issues kind of show themselves. Where you don't have that order and that things that make sense and that familiarity to you. So like, like I remember I had said before I went in, um.

Dave: Um, you know, one of the guys is like, Oh, you seem to get back to work. That'll make you feel better. And I'm like, it's not work that bothers me. It's my days off that are, you know, I'm freaking out. I haven't been back to work yet. I'm like, if I go back to work, work will be fine, but I'll still be messed up with my days off.

Dave: So that's kind of what, yeah. Another realization I had when I was there was, you know, I think it was like three weeks into it when I was laying in bed, you know, getting, getting ready for a normal person's sleep again, that. I was like, this was like the first time in 18 years I had spent like three, you know, pretty much any time.

Dave: Like, you know, since I'd been, since I was 16, that I hadn't been in a firehouse responding to calls or doing something for, you know, more than,

TJ: It's a weird

Dave: you know, I was like my first time I'd had like three weeks off that I wasn't. In a firehouse getting interrupted, interrupted sleep, going on calls, helping other people, you know, in 18 years and it's like a weird, like,

TJ: feeling to put

Dave: it's a weird feeling because it feels selfish,

TJ: like, phrases and

Dave: you know, again, because what draws a lot of people to fire service is helping other people and doing stuff and putting others first and, you know, the people come before me and all this stuff.

Dave: And it's like, it's just a weird, It's kind of like a selfish feeling to put yourself first. And you know, some of the good like phrases and sayings and stuff like that is like, you know, the, the airplane rule, right? Like, Hey, when a little oxygen mass dropped down, what do they tell you? You got to put the mask on yourself first. Before you help other people. And the reason you have to do that is because if you don't put it on, you're going to drop out and you're not going to be able to help anybody.

TJ: anybody. It's

Dave: Hey, you know, and that's like, Oh yeah, I guess that's right. And it's just, you know, we,

TJ: like most, in

Dave: know, like most in general, most people who are like the

TJ: hospital, it's like,

Dave: You know, the go to person, help everybody out, do all that stuff.

Dave: It's like, they're never really checking in on themselves. They're worried about everyone else and making other people happy and being a people pleaser and, you know, that kind of stuff. Or,

TJ: kind of

Dave: uh, you know, it's, it's just one of them things that like, you know, therapy and like the, like the center is kind of taking a little center in like doing like medication and stuff is like. It's putting a wagon pipe in service to knock the bulk of the fire down, to calm shit down. You know, therapy is, you know, they can hump hose at the door or the corner to help, help you, but they're not on the nozzle. They can't put it out. It's... You kicking a door and kicking a door and it's the halogen bar sitting on the truck like it's a tool to help you get in that door.

Dave: The halogen bar is not going to open the door. You have to do it, but it's a tool to get you to open the door. Um, I think a lot of people struggled with COVID because

TJ: go to, a

Dave: When we had all the shutdowns and everything because there wasn't a bar to go to. There wasn't a sporting event to go to. There wasn't a distraction every day and every weekend.

Dave: And being forced to

TJ: self in

Dave: with yourself and do a little introspection really freaked a lot of people out.

TJ: do, so like that's where the,

Dave: Yeah, no, I mean, that's the, you know, facing, facing your own self in the mirror is one of the harder things you have to do. So like, that's where the, you know, the mentality or the idea that like, oh, he's going to therapy, he's taking the easy way, he's not being a man.

Dave: It's like, no, it's. It's fucking difficult to address your own issues and your own problems, like, that's, you know, facing your own demons is, is not an easy fight to take on. And people can help you, but you still got to do it yourself. Like, and that's where,

TJ: like, and

Dave: you know, like that, that victim mentality really, it pisses me off to a degree.

Dave: And it's like, I get it. So like you have no say in whether you are a victim, whether you're gonna get somebody you know, stab you or somebody runs a car into you, or, you know, whatever.

TJ: You know what I mean? Something bad happened, it happened to you.

Dave: You don't have any say in it, something bad happened, it happened to you, you are a victim. Choosing to be a victim is completely a choice, in my opinion.

Dave: Like, you can let it, uh, and I gotta give credit to my buddy. Uh, Mark Little, uh, Army, I think he was a captain when it happened, but he got IED explosion, uh, double amputee, uh, so, when I was going through my stuff, I asked him, you know, I hit him up and, you know, he gave me some good advice on everything about how, like, you know, hey, it's a bad thing, it happened to you.

Dave: Nothing you can do about it, but you have to choose to grow from it and take that on as a new, like overcoming it to is, is your new objective. He's like, you know, if you heard there was a house on fire with somebody inside, you wouldn't just go up and grab the door. And if it's locked, be like, Oh, I tried and walk away.

Dave: You would, you would, you would do whatever you had to, to get inside. He's like, you have to make, you know, overcoming this issue. Your sole focus and he's like, you know, you're very mission driven, you know, fire department like military. You're very mission driven You have to make that your objective is to hell or high water.

Dave: I'm gonna overcome this. He's like if you let That incident or what's going on with you define you it will defeat you Because the people that play into the victim card and wallow in self pity and woe is me Are never gonna get out of it. They're gonna Accept, you know, he's like People use the, oh, I have PTSD, that's why I'm an asshole thing as an excuse, and he's like, it's a fucking bullshit excuse, like, you're just an asshole, like, you're not. yourself to grow from it and be better. You're just using that as a crutch to excuse you not, you know, pushing yourself forward.

TJ: You wouldn't you would do whatever you had to because it's not an issue. Your soul is in the dirt, what's going to accept you is like, pushing yourself to... It takes work. It is a lot. It's facing those demons in the mirror and it could be scary demons or it could be like, Hey, I'm not the person I want to be.

Dave: Yeah.

TJ: It takes a lot of effort.

Dave: Well, a lot of it is, you know, there's a lot of, a of the problem is ego in the fire department. Um, You know, guys, and that's, that's what I love so much about the IFF center was, you know, everyone, you know, everybody, uh, again, this gets into some of this kind of granola munching hippie shit about like, you know, everybody wears a mask and, you know, what you try to, Show us who you are and the image you want to have and all that.

Dave: Everybody dropped that shit. There was no like, Oh, I'm a tougher fireman than you. And I'm more aggressive and I'm a saltier, you know, I got more, everyone just dropped the fucking tough guy act. Everybody realized, Hey, we're all here. We're all fucked up and we're here to get better. So everybody kind of leaned on each other and was, you know, the communication between, you know.

Dave: People from, you know, all over the country with different departments and experiences, like, we all had that same common factor. Hey, we, we're admitting we're fucked up, we're admitting we're here, and you were, you know, able to kind of help each other out to get through it. And, you know, there's so much of that in the, in the fire service of, like, Pretending that you have to always be, you know, and I mean, I, I started out and, you know, I'm sure you're familiar, kind of that same era of suck it up.

Dave: Don't be a pussy. We just move on from it, joke about it and stuff it down and, you know, move on. And, you know, stuffing things down as a great solution until it's not,

TJ: Like an

Dave: know, and that, and, you know, same thing.

TJ: this

Dave: Uh, coming back from my buddy, Mark was, you know, and I was telling him about like, dude, I'm freaking out.

Dave: I can't go in the fucking grocery store. What's going on with me? Uh, and you know, I figured, you know, he did, he does a lot of stuff with the veteran community and the charities and stuff like that. And, you know, kind of helped that kind of helped him with his mission. Getting better was also helping other people.

Dave: But, you know, he explained it to me. He's like, I'm not a psych, a psychologist or whatever. He's like, so this is just my bullshit thing. But he's like, When you're deployed in combat, taking bullets, da da da da, it's like, you don't have time to think about stuff, you know, to, hey, your friend gets shot, you know, something bad happens, you see something bad, whatever. You just put it on the shelf, it's a bad thing, I'll deal with it another day. I gotta, I got something I gotta do. Alright, the next, next day, something bad happens, you know, the wife calls and says she's divorcing you, I don't have time to deal with this, I'm in the middle of something, I'm gonna shelve this, I'm gonna shelve this, I'm gonna shelve this, and...

Dave: You know, six months later, when you get back and you're not getting shot at and you're not on the mission and you're not doing something, all that stuff you put on the shelf comes back and it brings also brings all the brain chemicals along with it. So when that damn does open up and you know, the cumulative, if you haven't addressed it over the years, when that cumulative aspect of all that trauma hits.

Dave: It's going to bring all those brain chemicals and your amygdala fight or flight response is going to go fucking haywire. And that's, you know, what left me sitting there freaking out about the cashier at the grocery store. Like, I'm just sitting there in the, like, panic. Like, I know she's not a threat. I know she's not going to murder me. But I can't walk over there, you know, like you're because your brain is just that, you can't like that.

TJ: my friends.

Dave: Yeah. When it's like on the fucking, you know, fritz like that, you, you can't overcome, like, I mean, you can, there's, there's stuff you learn to cope with it and help and, you know, calm it down and do stuff.

Dave: But in that moment, it's just like, That nice little sweet old lady right there. My brain is telling me she's going to pull a knife out and shank me. I can't walk it. You know, it's just like,

TJ: you can if she could.

Dave: I mean, there's always, there's always

TJ: probably a gangster.

Dave: There's always that possibility, but like, you know, and you were saying, it's just like, that's, you know, when, when all those bad days hit that you've stuffed down, all it's done is sat there and festered and gotten worse and worse and blows everything up.

Dave: So. Uh, one of the guys who came in for on the weekends at the center, he was really cool. I liked him. He, um, you know, he, he kind of laid it out to everybody cause it was a weekend. I was a little more low key, but his thing was like, look, you don't have to turn into some, you know, granola munch and hippie who's going to cry at sunsets and hold hands and you know, be a whole different person.

Dave: That's not what therapy, that's not what. Facing your demons, learning how to cope, learning how to communicate, how to be vulnerable and being open. That's, that's not what therapy and pushing yourself is going to do. It's going to help you be a better person in general. He's like, it's not going to turn you into someone else.

Dave: It's going to allow you to be happy to kind of be basically just happier with who you are as a person and to process the shit that's happened to you. So you can be a better person. Um, You know, like I remember my, my lieutenant at the time, he had, uh, he had told me later on, he's like, yeah, I was worried when you went in there that you were going to come out and be some, you know, some liberal or whatever, you know, some crying, a crying about stuff.

Dave: And I was like, he's like, but that didn't seem to, didn't seem to affect you. So that's good. And you know, it's like, all right, you know, I get it.

TJ: and not worry about, like, the future.

Dave: Yeah, no, I mean, he, he was great. He, uh, you know, and that, you know, it's been, I don't know if you got officers and stuff that listen to you, like, you know, he was. Uh, that, that really helped having a officer who, you know, old school guy, he, you know, I think he was 26, 27 years at the time, you know, but he was like, look, I don't understand any of this stuff, but whatever, we'll, I'll be there with you. We'll figure it out together. You know, when I told him I was going in and he said, don't worry, I got the department side handled.

Dave: He, you know, he drove to the, uh, Chief of the clinic's house to tell him like and called him in his driveway to tell him like hey My guy is off on sick leave. He's not showing up to your stupid clinic. He's here. If you have a problem with it, call me But, put him on sick leave until he gets out and then I'll have him come in there and then he can deal with you.

Dave: And I was like, holy shit. You know, but like having like that person going to bat for you really kind of makes you like not, not worry about like, Oh fuck, I'm not going to lose my job. You know, whatever. Like it takes that little fear off like, hey, you got somebody who's, you know, taking care of that stuff for you.

Dave: Like,

TJ: Yeah, that support system is so key because you mentioned it and I was going to ask you about that, that fear of what am I going to have, like, am I going to have more pieces to pick up when I leave knowing that you are taken care of while you are taking care of yourself gives you not just that permission mentally, but that, that space to grow, to improve and to actually come out as a better person in the long run.

Dave: the 

TJ: actually goes perfectly into, into something that I wanted to ask you, because mental health and mental well being is not a finite game, meaning it doesn't just stop, right? It is a constant. Every day it could be a struggle, but it's like, it is something that you have to take care of every single day.

TJ: Can you give me two, three techniques, practices, things that you learned at the center? That you still do every day or every week or every month to, to just take care of yourself.

Dave: so there's a lot of stuff, you know, a lot of, a lot of avenues you can get into. Like, uh, I know some of the things that really right out of the gate was right outta the gate. One of the most helpful things for me was, uh, journaling. Um, I mean, you can get, you can get a template, you know, online.

Dave: You can buy a journal that has prompts in it and stuff, but, Uh, you know, I'm a very like, I don't know, I just think I'm called like logic, logic driven person. So being able to have a journal and write stuff out, it helps get it out of your brain and on a paper and you can kind of like evaluate yourself.

Dave: Like I remember the, when I was like sitting here like day two or whatever, and uh, somebody one of the therapists people had given me this, like, Hey, this is the thing. You know, if you want to do your journal thing. And it was like, you know, all right, question one. All right. If this, is this a life or death emergency? All right. No. All right. If your best friend came to you and said they were having this issue, what would you tell them? I don't know. I'd tell him like. Hey, you're in a good spot. There's people to support you. They're trying to help you. It's not a big deal. Whatever, like, alright. If your, you know, six year old, you know, niece came and asked you and told you they were having this issue, how would you tell them?

Dave: You're like, well, you know, you tell them, oh, it's no big deal and people have problems and whatever. They're like, alright, cool. So why aren't you talking to yourself the same way that you would talk to a close friend? Like, why are you being so hard on yourself? Um. That, that self talk too is a big one where, you know, when we get, as we get older, our, our self talk stops going from You know, I'm a, yeah, like the one little meme about like, oh, be like a kid with a six year old in a Batman costume or whatever, whatever.

TJ: Believe that you can do 

TJ: anything. 

Dave: yeah, like you go from like that to, alright, once you start hitting high school, you get a little more critical of yourself and trying to be cool and, you know, worried about this person likes you or whatever, and then you start getting older. It's like, alright, am I good enough? You know, employee, am I good enough?

Dave: Boyfriend, am I good enough? You know, girlfriend or whatever. You know, whatever. Your self talk just becomes nothing but critical. Sure, it's good to be hard on yourself. It's good to, you know, Hey, make sure, you know, try to keep yourself. But, you should also be your own biggest cheerleader. And your own biggest fan.

Dave: Like, that was something, you know, teaching that confidence class, that was one of the things I'd always tell, and like, even the, you know, the rookies and stuff was like, hey, you know, if you don't believe in yourself, then why the fuck should anybody else believe in you?

TJ: Mm.

Hey friends, I want to take a quick moment to ask you to support the show by leaving a rating and a review on your favorite platform. Your support means the world to us, and it helps spread the message to even more people. We've gotten thousands and thousands of listeners, and those high ratings help our show become more discoverable, allowing us to reach even more listeners and make an even greater impact.

So, if you've enjoyed what you've heard so far, Please take a moment to leave a rating and a review. It only takes a few seconds and it makes a huge difference. Thank you so much. And now let's get back to the show.

Dave: Like, you know, and it's, you know, just for that confidence aspect of like, hey, you got to believe in yourself, because if you don't, then why should I?

Dave: Like, so, you know, to kind of like reinforce that, and like, one of the books I read was, It was silly as shit, but it actually kind of worked. It said, uh, uh, tell yourself you love yourself, like, 12 times a day. For like two weeks. Like, brushing your teeth. Man, I fucking love myself. Sitting in traffic. Man, I fucking love myself.

Dave: And, you know, it's like, and the theory of it is, is if you tell yourself something long enough, you'll start believing

TJ: Mm hmm. 

Dave: know, it's like, so, you know, it actually kind of like, well, the end of it, like, you know what, I'm not that bad, you know, like, it kind of like makes you think like, all right, let's get, it just improves your mental outlook a little better, but like that, that positive, you know, that, uh, Oh, there's, I'm sorry, I'm cutting you off.

Dave: There's

TJ: Oh, go ahead.

Dave: some, um, Some scientific explanation or term, like ocular, peripheral, I don't know, some science shit. But it's basically, it's like, hey, if you're, you know, the theory is like, hey, if I'm thinking about buying a red car,

TJ: Oh, yeah.

Dave: you're going to see is red cars. Because your brain is actively like, hey, I want to buy a red car.

Dave: Oh, there's a red car. Oh, there's a red car. Oh, there's a, oh man, I like that red car. So it really goes into The guys that sit around the firehouse and bitch and moan about everything Every time you got to do a drill, every time you get a call, every time something happens, every time the rookie doesn't mop the all the spot, everything They are actively looking for something to bitch about and be miserable about every fucking day.

Dave: That's their whole mentality is I am actively looking for shit to complain about And that's a terrible way to fucking go about life. you know, I had a, one of my conversations before I came back to duty with my therapist was like, I don't, I'm not sure if I want to do this anymore. You know, I've done it for 18 years.

Dave: I don't know, I could do something else, you know, but, you know, I kind of, We sat and did a pros and cons and I was like, all right, I'm not exempt from never seeing bad shit again or doing whatever. At least if I'm at work, I can still be involved and do something to help people. But you know, I came out, came back out with a very strong focus on, all right.

Dave: Uh, so like one of the things when I left the center and was, Taking time before I came back to duty, I did, I helped with a recruit class down at the training academy, and you know, kind of was figuring my own shit out, but also helping with them, and just being around a bunch of young, I hate to say young, I'm not like I'm older, I guess I'm counting him

TJ: A little young within the department.

Dave: Yeah, but like, you know, so like dealing with people who are like super excited to be there and super excited to learn and, you know, just kind of like helped me reignite that spark about like just being around motivated people, the officer corps that was down there teaching were all solid dudes, um, had some good conversations with them and, you know, it was like, they're solid dudes and Absolutely zero judgement from any of them with the mental health stuff.

Dave: And they actually kind of open up to me about, Oh yeah, I've seen a therapist or, Hey, yeah, shit, you know that fire we had, you know? Eight years ago, I was on with you, like, I still think about, you know, the bloody paw prints from that dog that we came out, and that just sticks in my head, or, you know, like, you know, man, I had this call where it just, it wasn't even a bad call, it was just, you know, it, it fucked me up that, you know, thinking about those little kids in that apartment that have a mattress on the floor with a bunch of trash sitting around, they think that's life, and that just messed with me, that, you know, I got off duty and took my kids to Disney World the next day, like, um, and like, the, The amount of people while I was in that time frame That kind of pulled me aside and said hey, you know, I take this medication or oh, yeah, I see a therapist Which one do you go to?

Dave: Hey, what pill are you on? Or you know, oh, man. Yeah, I went here, you know Hey 12 years ago. I did it and it's just like What the fuck you know,

TJ: Right, you don't feel alone 

Dave: Yeah, but it's just like, you know, I'm sitting there the whole time thinking like fuck. I'm you know, I have this, you know, you're mentally like

TJ: people... Right.

Dave: I'm broken. I'm uniquely broken.

Dave: Everyone else around me is excelling. They're doing awesome. They got their shit together. Nothing bothers them. Why am I fucked up? I must not be able to, I must be weak, or I can't handle this. Or, you know, they're going to look at me as like, oh, I'm fucked up. And like, open about it, people are like, oh yeah, me too.

Dave: You know, it's like. What the fuck? And you realize that like, shit, everybody's, you know, fucking 90 percent of the department are taking the medication or see a therapist or have been through some issues and it can relate and it's like this like huge, like secret club for some reason that's secret, but it's most of the people are in.

TJ: Yeah, it's a...

Dave: Um, yeah, that's like, I mean, I do my, uh, my therapist, I got, I still, uh, I still see him like once every six months or something. Or, yeah, six weeks or, I don't know, whatever. We just every once in a while check in just to, just to kind of keep it on the books because, you know, when I first came out I was like, uh, every week and then it came like every, Other week and then it was like hey once a month and now it's like once every two months Yeah, I said, but for me, it's it's pretty much just a bullshit session now Like I don't really have a lot of stuff pressing to tell them or to ask her to because you you learn the tools on Your own like they teach you kind of how to process shit Like, when I would get, you know, after the center, like, when I would get anxious, it might take, like, two, three days to kind of calm that nervous system down.

Dave: Then it took a day, then it took a couple hours, then it took a couple minutes, and now it's just kind of like, well, alright. And, like, it's kind of weird for me to relearn, hey, it's okay to be anxious. Like, this is a natural human thing. Your brain's trying to help you. Like, hey, I'm going on a date. Hey, you normally wouldn't be nervous about that.

Dave: Don't freak out, dude.

TJ: like they teach

Dave: Um,

TJ: it's gotta feel good. Um, seeing that progression that you talked about, just talking to a therapist every so often to more sporadically. And also like you talked about, like becoming anxious and taking a couple of days, a couple hours, a couple minutes, like that is further reinforcement of like, I am using the tools correctly.

TJ: I am on the right path. I am constantly growing and improving while still being respectful and being graceful. To what you went through to get to that point, to, to the instances that, that led you to get help and to learn and grow as a person.

Dave: Yeah, and like, uh, you know, like I said, when I was at the center or as when I was at the academy after the center, you know, I spent a lot of time like the instructor trailer, you know, it's kind of like where, you know, all the cool kids hang out and like whenever companies come down into the drill, you know, a couple of guys stop in and you kind of get to hear like every dumb thing that's happening and every holy shit that you hear about this guy, you know?

Dave: So, I mean, it was, it was fun, but like the, the, the moment that Kind of got me was, uh, you know, about a month into that when I was sitting there and like, uh, like, I think I like cracked a joke at somebody and was laughing. And, uh, one of the, one of the guys, one good friend of mine is a captain now, uh, Tony White.

Dave: He, uh, he told me like, Hey man, it's good to have you back.

TJ: Damn.

Dave: but it was, I've been sitting near him for three weeks. But that was the first time like I was back, you know, like he was like, it was kind of hit me because it was like the first time I was like, I kind of calmed down and just, all right, you know, back to norm, you know, norm.

Dave: And like, I mean, that's something else too from, from the center that I learned was you don't want to get back to normal. That's a bad thing to aspire to. Getting back to normal means back to whatever got you in that position in the first place. You don't want to go back to baseline. You want to be better than you were to avoid the issues you're going through.

Dave: You want to be a better person than you were. You know, like, you know, Hey, you know, you're, you have an alcohol problem or whatever. And, you know, I got, I just want to get back to normal. And, you know, it's like. Well, normal led you to where you're at now, dude. So you don't want to be normal, normal. You want to be better than you were.

Dave: So it's always kind of aspiring to try to be a little better and like, you know, and and you know, kind of circling back to kind of one of the very first things we talked about, like, you know, my buddy from the squad who was open about his thing. So that's why I kind of felt obligated that I needed to be open about my stuff.

Dave: Cause you know, Hey. You know, I'm not the seniorest guy on the job, and you know, hey, not everybody might like me, but I don't give a shit. Um, but, uh, hey, you know, some people do. Or maybe some guys see, you know, all this guy, you know, oh, you hear about that? You know, I'm like, you know, kind of, hopefully to kind of be an example of like, hey, it's not the end of the world to go get help, to be gone for about two months.

Dave: Getting mental health and you know, I'm back driving a ladder truck, going to fires, helping teach, been doing it for a few, you know, back for two, three years now or whatever. And like, you know, a lot of people think that it's like you're raising the flag that you're done and everyone's going to blackball you.

Dave: And there's no way, you know, if I, if I hit that pass alarm, it's that's it. Everybody's going to know that, you know, man, it's like people don't really give a shit. Like people care. More people than you would think about, you know, give a shit. Uh, you know, the other kind of mental thing that is a constant, daily, uh, thing to work on, I guess you should say, is that, you know, I don't give a fuck mentality, or I don't give a shit, whatever, I don't know, I don't know if we're, keep the, keep the promises, uh, Yeah, yeah,

TJ: back to say.

Dave: but uh, you know that like, I don't give a fuck mentality is like, it's easy to say, right, it's easy to think you're in that mentality, but the, You know, the I don't give a fuck mentality takes work because, you know, it's, it's you becoming confident in who you are as a person and not giving a shit what someone else thinks about you or the, I forgot the dude's name, this one motivational thing that I listened to is, you know, it was like the, the 10 most dangerous words in the English language are What will other people say?

Dave: And what will other people think? Because it doesn't matter, you know, your opinion of yourself and your, if you can lay your head on the pillow at night and go to sleep and be happy with who you are, doesn't matter, you know, like, oh, did you hear this guy talk shit about you? I don't care. Like. Doesn't bother me, you know, like, or, you know, like,

TJ: One that I heard in, on that same vein is that If you're concerned so much about what somebody might be thinking or saying about you, start zooming out. Get on your phone, zoom out. Zoom out of your city, and your state, and your country. Pretty soon you're going to be just watching the whole Earth. And if you can keep zooming out far enough, we're just a speck of dust in a galaxy.

TJ: What that person is thinking does not matter at all.

Dave: Yeah, and I, you know, it also, you know, you know, kind of reinforcing about, you know, the ego problem in the fire department. It's like, oh, I'm from Station 500. You're only, you're from fucking station 300 loser. It's like nobody gives a shit other than, other than you and your department.

Dave: Nobody caress like, I'm going to go outside the fire so I'm

TJ: then, you Yeah, I like that. Yeah,

Dave: and like, like me and you, you know, both, both, uh, had to, you know, have some friends and had done the go rock stuff and, you know, know guys who are, you know, green braids and special forces and all. And like, they'll even tell you, it's like when you're, when they get out and they're, you know, go for a job interview and they're like, Oh, I was a green braid.

Dave: They're like, all right, that's cool. So next thing is like, they, they don't give a shit. And yeah, like, uh. Like my last lieutenant was saying something about how he is like, you know, he used to be a engine driver and he was like at the bar with his, with his friends or whatever and, but he's all pissed off 'cause they had some fire or something and he's like, ah, fucking, you know, engine, whatever, you know that fucking Peterson.

Dave: And he was beating an asshole and he, they'd been charge my line and they think they're so fucking good. And like the friend of his was like, what the fuck is an engine? Whatever. And he's like, well, you know, there's this firehouse and they think they're cool and he's like All right that's cool, I guess like, you know, and like it kind of he said it kind of like hit him like Yeah, I guess it doesn't really matter, does it?

Dave: You know, like, you know, it's like, you know, we, we get so caught up in this, like, you know, I'm a, I'm a tough guy, fireman who's got a salty mustache and aggressive and I'm in a biker gang and you know, whatever. And I had this like pristine image, like of like how I'm a badass, like. You know, people would like razz us, cause like we did like yoga at our firehouse.

Dave: Like, you know, pussies, and it's like, guess what? My back doesn't hurt, buddy. Have fun. Like, we're, we're hanging out,

TJ: Enjoy your painkillers!

Dave: we're like, we're hanging out, watching a hot chick do yoga, making us laugh, and stretching. You know, we're going to fucking play with a pony, enjoy the sunshine. Like, what are you doing?

Dave: Sitting around, watching TV, bitching about how everybody

TJ: Right, talking about the fire service, like, come on.

Dave: Yeah, like it's like, you know, like that's something that like messes, kind of messes with some young, younger guys, like, cause then they would, uh, we had access to this, uh, like four story hotel that was abandoned for like three years. So like every tour we were over there throwing ladders, doing shit and we'd get like a probationary and be like, Hey, try this out.

Dave: And he's like, Oh, well, you know, and I'm like, dude, I don't give a shit if you drop the ladder. I'm not calling your firehouse and telling them that, Oh, this fucking rookie, whatever. And it's like. I've dropped one. The lieutenants drop one. We try shit out. If you're not pushing yourself to try something out of your comfort zone, you're not going to grow.

Dave: So, you know, like that's another like ego problem in the fire department is guys are like, you know, feel like, oh, if I got 10 years on.

TJ: I can't mess

Dave: people expect me to know what I'm doing. So I'm just going to hide in the back and not do the drill so they can't see that I don't know what I'm doing. And that just builds, that makes them like, that to me is like the most dangerous guy, not the new guy, the guy who has kind of hid in the back for a long time and should know better, but is the first one to yell at somebody or, Hey, Oh, go rookie.

Dave: Why don't you go throw a ladder? You know, like, not like out there with them. Um, It's, it's a, it's an interesting one.

TJ: here's something that I want to talk about next, because we've... It's so important when we talk about not making this whole job our identity and our sole identity Hang out with nutmeg that got you into horseback riding, right?

Dave: Well, now, uh, so growing up, you know, grew up on a dairy farm. I had a, uh, had a quarter horse growing up. I was in 4 H fairs, did some, did some

TJ: Oh, wow, that is the most northern harford county thing i've heard come out of your

Dave: Yep. And, uh, I, you know, kind of hadn't ridden in, I haven't ridden in quite a while, but a friend of mine would always let me kind of hang out and ride her, ride her one horse. But I was just kind of plopping around while she was, you know, dealing with her other one. And finally I was just like, eh, you know what?

Dave: I think I'm going to take up riding lessons again. So she hooked me up with somebody and, you know, I go like every week and it's, you know, the first time I went. I'm like, done it before, but treat me like I'm, Every other four year old come in here for a horse lesson and just start from scratch. And, you know, it's been really cool because, you know, I guess I've been doing firefighting for however many years, and, you know, teaching at the academy and doing stuff, and being a, being a, you know, a student, you know, it also helps a lot because, like, I've learned to drop the ego and drop worrying about...

Dave: Not looking like, you know, so like I've got no problem like when she yells at me or tells me to do something or saying like, you know, raising my hand. I don't know what the fuck you're talking about. Like, you know, or like even at work, like when we do a drill, like I'm the first one to raise my hand and be like, say that again.

Dave: Cause I didn't hear you or what the fuck are you talking about? Cause you know, nobody wants to be that guy in the class, but it's like, or, you know, like I have one thing I tell people, I shouldn't really tell people, but like, Like when I'm dealing with a, with a new guy, or a detail guy, you know, a detail probation or whatever, and hey, we're going over ladders.

Dave: Like, I purposely fuck up the first ladder. Fumble with it. Mess up while

TJ: a detail guy. 

Dave: And to... Right off the bat. So he can see, you know, shit happens, man. You know, let me adjust it, get it back. All right, cool. So, Hey, you just gotta, you gotta play with it, man. It's okay to make mistakes just to kind of take that edge off of him about worrying about making a mistake in front of the driver, you know, whatever.

Dave: So it's like sets that standard of like, Hey man, it's, it's cool. We all make mistakes, you know, like pretending that you don't mess up. It's fucking stupid.

TJ: to be

Dave: But anyway, getting riding back, getting down to horses, uh, yeah, I was like, you know what?

TJ: I was just

Dave: I wanna be able to throw a lasso off a horse. That's my goal.

Dave: And you know, it's just like, it's fun. Like, I don't know, I'm not gonna be on, you know, Yellowstone or anything, but like, you know, apocalypse planning, Hey, I can ride a horse

TJ: you figure it out? Can you lasso something off a horse yet?

Dave: As long as it's a 50 gallon barrel and the horse isn't going super fast, I, I can, I can handle it. But, uh, but nah, it's been fun, man.

Dave: Like it, it, you know, and it's, and actually it's weirdly tied to, um, uh, mental health. Cause, you know, horsemanship is what I, so it's not riding lessons, it's horsemanship lessons.

TJ: Okay.

Dave: So, she spends a lot of time and you learn, like, You know, horses are a prey animal. They're scared of fucking everything. They also can, uh, like, read your heartbeat from like, four feet away or something.

Dave: They can tell if you're freaking out, cause if they, if they can like tell your heart's beating fast, they're gonna start freaking out and think, oh shit, somebody's trying to eat him, so we should both run.

TJ: Wow.

Dave: Yeah, and uh, You know, it teaches us, so it's kind of weirdly a lot of similarities with like cognitive behavioral therapy.

Dave: So that's like, hey, this horse is scared about this. You know, it's scared of a noise. So, do the thing, you know,

TJ: So,

Dave: whip the thing around and do it until you see the horse like, kind of calm down. Or, after ten seconds, pet him and tell him it's okay. Alright, now switch to the other side. You know, do that. Hey, if they calm down, stop, pet them.

Dave: If they don't, after 10 seconds, stop, pet them. Like, show them that it's okay to be around that. Um, and then like, you know, communication stuff, it's a lot of like, your body language, the way you're facing them, the way you're presenting yourself, like learning to like, you know, because it's a silent partner you're working with.

Dave: And they feed off of your body, you know, your body position, your, you know, the way you're moving, the way you're talking to them. So that really kind of helps with like, all right, you really got to kind of think a little more about how you're... Talking to somebody or how you're presenting yourself when you're with them or keeping that calm level headed with level headed, even though you want to punch him in the face, you gotta gotta stay calm and level headed. Um, it's just been a good, you know, environment, you know, hanging out. With some, with some people and, you know, photography and

TJ: I was gonna say, that was my next

Dave: gives me a good, uh, outlet to stop by, uh, horseshoes and practice taking pictures and stuff. And, you know, that was another good outlet after the center was photography, taking pictures and, you know, kind of, kind of reinforcing helping to, you know, like one of the things like with the mental health stuff about grounding, about like, Hey, Stop worrying about what happened or what might happen.

Dave: Just you're here right now. Enjoy it. So like, you know, a big one I do, especially this time of year as it gets dark early is, you know, like I tried to take in the sunset, you know, 15 minutes before 15 minutes after just sit there with the camera, enjoy the birds chirping, the wind blowing, watch the colors change.

Dave: Just kind of be in that moment. Don't. Be stressing about other shit and like and I know that's hard for people, you know, if you get family and kids and side work and all this other stuff, but like You know if you can carve, you know, five minutes out of your day to just do something for yourself. That's like you're a little happy place like The other one was like meditation So I can't do meditation in the, in the sense of like the, Imagine you're in your happy place on a sandy beach and you know, da da da.

Dave: And there's a,

TJ: imagining that right now,

Dave: right, you know, there's a warm glow filling your body. And I'm like that, I can close my eyes. That doesn't mean shit to me. So for me, for meditation is. Again, I'm a idiot truck driver, so, uh, I pretty much would just do like the, hey, lay on the ground, put some chill music on, and do, uh, breathing exercises.

Dave: So, like, I would do, like, kind of like box breathing ish, where, you know, I'm gonna count in my head, through my, through my nose, 1, 2, 3, 4. Hold it, 1, 2, 3, 4. Exhale, pushing out, you know. Pushin your, uh, stomach towards your spine, like, really diaphragm, blowin it out of your mouth. Like, seven seconds. Hold it. One, two, three, four.

Dave: And just kinda keep doin that. And then, as you're doin it, Oh, fuck, did I forget to do this? Oh, wait a second. Hold on. I'm thinking. Let me get back to what I was doin Let me start over again. In through my nose. One, two. So, like, meditation isn't like, you're devoid of thoughts, and you're not thinking of anything with this happy little meadow with a tree.

Dave: It's not thinking about other shit. It's thinking about what you're doing in the moment you're in. I'm laying on the floor right now. My hand's touching the thing. I'm breathing. I'm

TJ: breathing. 

TJ: I'm

Dave: nose. I'm listening to the bird. You know, like, you're not thinking about all the other shit you have to do.

Dave: So like, You know, and there's like, there's some study that like, I

TJ: like,

Dave: it's like five minutes of five or 10 minutes meditation for like 30 days, like shrinks your amygdala a lot. So like I was, that was a big one I was working on cause I was mine was like, so like inflamed was the meditation and calming that nervous system to kind of actually shrink them.

Dave: Amygdala said made it harder to do whatever. Um, another one for that was like when I was kind of like the Wegmans going through there was to like walk down the aisle. If I was like kind of freaking out, I would look at the prices of stuff. And again, I'm an idiot. So it was simple arithmetic, but it was like, all right, that's That's 135, so 1 plus 3 equals 4 plus 5 equals 9.

Dave: Alright, yeah, so like it was making your, uh, whatever part of your brain think, cognitive,

TJ: that's, that's 135. So like, it was making

Dave: Alright, whatever fucking nerd term you want to talk, say, but it

TJ: don't know. I just,

Dave: right, but what it did was it draws blood from that amygdala area up to your Thinking part of your brain. So like that's where like engaging in something if you're you know in a book They also have an audio book, but they also have an app dare by barry Mcdonough Audio book's really cool because he's like irish.

Dave: So he's like, oh, I tell you a lot of you what you do It's like I fucking loved it. I was like this guy's awesome Uh, but that was probably the most beneficial for me for any kind of anxiety stuff. And he covers like every kind of, you know, every kind of thing you could think of. He literally has like a little like, Hey, this is how you should deal with that.

Dave: Hey, this is what to do. But his, the process in it was very, very focused and I think would identify with most firemen is you're not trying to find your happy place and calm down and you know, whatever it's. Fuck this. I'm tired of it. I'm gonna address it. Like, oh shit, I'm getting worked up. Hey, this is just my anxiety.

Dave: Alright, fuck that. Keep, you know, like, hey, if somebody has like a Oh, my heart's beating really fast. Oh shit, I'm getting anxious about this. My heart's beating, and it's like Alright, that's cause I'm anxious. Fuck it. Keep beating. Beat out of my chest. I don't give a shit. Put me in a cardiac arrest. And like, you know, challenging it, like the, the one thing that really, really sold me in that book was, uh, he quoted or, you know, had a reference to, uh, Forrest Gump with Lieutenant Dan up on the cruise nest during the hurricane where he's, you know, up there in his, you know, American flag bandana screaming at the storm, like, you call this a storm?

Dave: Bring it, you know, screaming at it. And then like the next scene, he's, you know, waiting in the calm, cool waters and he's, and like, And that's what he was saying about, Hey, you know, when your brain is freaking out,

Dave: you have to run towards it and challenge it. And you know, like if, cause it's anxiety is, you know, it's a, we're, we're still operating.

Dave: We still have caveman software in our head. So we're still thinking, say we're two tiger, we got to run, we got to fight it. And modern day social media, news, everything. We're so overloaded that it doesn't know how to handle a modern society. And when it's, it's over, it's just being overprotective. So like one of the things I had, like, uh, again, I'm a kind of visual guy and I'd like to do dumb shit.

Dave: So I found this little, uh, image online. It was a little like paper bag that somebody like some little kids art project that it was like a tiger. So it was like a little paper bag tiger, you know, it was a little dumb looking tiger and actually like lamb printed it out, color laminated it and like had it in my pocket.

Dave: Cause, you know, it's like, hey, you know, it's a paper, anxiety is a paper tiger. It's telling you, holy fuck, there's a saber tooth tiger, but it's just a piece of paper. So I would kind of like, look at that to remind myself like, hey, there's no fucking tiger. It's pretend,

TJ: it 

Dave: calm down, you're not in danger.

TJ: some of it.

Dave: I'll see if I can, I can find it and show you, send you a picture. But, yeah, but it was just, you know, like, like little shit like that. And then I was just like, you know, there's a, there's a hair thin line between being excited about something and being terrified of it. Uh, so the analogy is like going to a haunted house, this time of year, going to a haunted house. Oh man, we're going to get in there, we're going to get scared.

Dave: Oh shit, you know, they scared me. Like, hey, you're excited, you know, it's going to be like, or like a roller coaster, like woo. Uh, but it's just, there's such a thin line between like, absolutely, legitimately terrified and like, woohoo, this is gonna be fun. So like, if you're like,

TJ: you're

Dave: Fuck it, I'm excited about this.

Dave: Let's do it. You know, like, and you like, kinda force your brain to back down. Like, so it's not, oh, I need to calm down and just ride the wave. It's like, fuck you, bring it on, brain. And you actually make your brain be like, this motherfucker's not playing. Like, I don't... I've given him every warning signal I can.

Dave: He's still going for it. Alright, we better, better back off because there's, nothing's happening. And so like, I think that was like, such a great system for somebody who's like, you know, a fire department. Kind of a type A, you know, whatever kind of person where, fuck it, you know, I'm, I'm going for it. And like, And, you know, another part of that book was, um, setbacks are part of the cure.

Dave: If you're not having setbacks, you are not pushing yourself out of your comfort zone and you're not growing. And that was, that, that is so important because like, Hey, you start doing good and then a month later something happens and you're like, fuck, I'm back to square one, everything. And it's like, nah, man. Avoidance is not solving your problem. You, like, so like if I had a really bad fire, or I had a bad fire, or I had a bad, really bad accident on this street,

TJ: just avoided

Dave: and I just avoided ever going on that street again. I didn't overcome that problem, I've just avoided it and never dealt with it. So like, you have to drive down that street, you know, you're not gonna keep going out of your way five miles just to avoid facing that problem.

Dave: You have to push yourself to deal with that problem. That's where growth comes from, that friction and that pushing yourself forward and Hmm.

TJ: I dig it.

Dave: Hmm.

TJ: Now, a question that I didn't hand you beforehand. This is one that I'd like to end with. What failure do you cherish the most?

Dave: That's a tough one. Cause I fuck up a lot.

TJ: That means you got a lot to pick from.

Dave: Oh yeah, it's hard to, hard to rank them. You know, um, You know, failure, Just, kinda like what I said, Just a minute ago was, Hey, if you're not fucking things up and, You know, screwing up, Then you're not trying, you know, If you're just staying in that lane of comfort zone and doing the, You know, doing the one drill That you're really good at every time.

Dave: Alright, great, but you're not growing, you're just doing the same thing over and over. Um,

Dave: I mean, I would probably, I would have to probably say the, you know, fucking up on the driver again. Cause that was like,

Dave: you know, do I really want to put myself through another... Three months of studying and sacrificing and, you know, doing that for this goal. And like, you know, I kind of made a deal with myself that, alright, you get, and like I've told other guys this who've messed up on a test, like, hey, you get today to beat yourself up and feel shitty about it. Tomorrow you start studying again. Like, give yourself that freedom to beat yourself up and feel like a piece of shit and whatever, but the next day, you know, don't, don't unpack your bags and live in that. The difference between a fuck up and being a fuck up is consistency.