031. I Want To Know What Broke Somebody And What Brought Them Back: Shooting from the Hip With Stack [Part 1]

Join Keep the Promise host TJ as he and Stack (of The Things We All Carry podcast) take a deep dive into the complex world of firefighting and mental health. In this episode, they share their own experiences and tackle the critical issue of mental well-being within the fire service.

From dismantling the stigma surrounding mental health conversations to confronting medication and its effects, this off-the-cuff episode will have you asking tough questions of yourself and your department. 

Explore the vital role that peer support plays in helping first responders cope with the demands of their profession. Learn about alternative methods for managing stress and anxiety and why a holistic approach to wellness is essential.

Tune in to gain a fresh perspective on mental health in the fire service, and hear how open conversations and compassionate leadership can make a positive impact.

As a patron of Keep the Promise, you're not just supporting a podcast—you’re joining a community of like-minded, aggressive firefighters who want to be the best at their craft. You’ll gain access to daily workouts, weekly mindset meditations, and early access to the insights you need to stay on top of your game. Support Keep the Promise and take your place among firefighters who know that our st

Support the show

>>> Shop Keep the Promise! <<<

Get 15% off your purchase at Rescue 1 CBD with code KTP at checkout!

Learn how to make your own custom fire helmet shields with the Helmet Shield Workbook

Listen to the end for a special shout out to our Patrons!

Get the FREE guide to minimalist firehouse workouts.

Links and resources:

• Join the Keep the Promise community
• Follow us on Instagram
• Check out our sponsor TJ Leather

Transcript

KtP - E031 - Stack [Part 1]

Stack: oh, so now you really put the pressure on. Cause I, I was just planning on being a guest. So now I have to switch to host mode. 

TJ: The one time where I'm like, let's just wing it. Right.

Where, where I let go of my OCD and you're like, nah, dog. 

Stack: I didn't say no, but now I have to, I, I have to think on the fly, which I'm okay with, but yeah, 

well, let's, uh, let's do it. Let's get rocking and rolling. You do whatever you have to do to lead into this.

Ladies 

TJ: and gentlemen, that was an amazing intro. I am not editing this out. You recognize this [00:01:00] voice. This is a repeat customer, a frequent flyer, if you will, not to mention the man behind the amazing intro for the keep the promise podcast. The legendary, 

Stack: that was, that's always, that was, that was still one of the more enjoyable things I did.

Bro, 

TJ: I have so much of your voice that I can probably feed it into an AI and like highly impersonate you. 

Stack: Well, it's not hard to find my voice, I guess it's out there. 

TJ: The host of the Things We All Carry podcast, my good friend, confidant, therapist, everything in between. Stack, welcome back to another episode of Keith 

Stack: Promise.

You're more fucked than you think you are. If you're calling me, your therapist, just, just to put it out there. 

TJ: Let's just say that when I spoke to my therapist recently, I'm like, listen, between my shift and a couple of close friends, they have been effective. I'll be at highly inappropriate therapists in your absence.

And she seemed okay with that. 

Stack: Yeah. She hasn't listened and she doesn't know me. So [00:02:00] what are we doing here today? 

TJ: We are just having a bit of a, um, End of the year thing, right? Remember all the Volley House videos where you do your end of the year video? Oh yeah. Breaking Benjamin, or I think what, Lose Yourself?

Everybody had to have Lose Yourself. Probably some Shine Down in there. Oh, Shine Down? But then when you talk about people, like when you have like the human interest part of the video, you flip it to some country music, so like Toby Keith, or Uh, I've seen, what, I've seen Kid Rock, but we're sitting here a little bit past mid December.

It's been a wild year for both of us, and you and I always have super candid, also chill conversations as if we're sitting at the kitchen table. So I figured it'd be a fun time to just sit back. Drink some coffee kind of vibe and be like, Hey, this is what we've done this year. This is what we wanted to accomplish.

[00:03:00] This is what we failed on. And these are the plans for the coming year, just as a way to kind of keep us humble and to keep our listeners in the loop as to, as to what's going on, you know, and show that humanity. 

Stack: It's, it's funny when you talk about what we've accomplished and what we failed to accomplish and, and.

This year has been a weird year. Obviously, uh, I, the whole last part of the year was, was consumed with, with personal issues and family issues. And, and I didn't, in my opinion, I didn't get as much accomplished as I'd like to have gotten accomplished this year. And it's kind of a, I look back on it. I'm not going to call it a wasted year.

Cause it's definitely not a wasted year. We, I recorded a lot of episodes where we're, to me, we're fascinating and I hope that listeners found them fascinating, but I didn't move forward much from where I was at the beginning of the year. And I need to do that. And I've talked about it, um, talked about ad nauseum, I think, in my intros and I've changed the way [00:04:00] I do my intros lately and it's more of a off the cuff, uh, extemporaneous speaking and I'm kind of just flying by the seat of my pants when I do my intros now, but it's, I always have something I want to say and one of the things that I need to do is I need to I need to make some changes to push the show where it needs to be, not where it is.

TJ: What sort of changes are those? 

Stack: Uh, I think I need to dial some stuff in. I need to add some things to a website. I need to add some services to the website. I need to, uh, I want to get into more of a mentoring role of, uh, I can't call myself a therapist, obviously, cause I'm, I'm, I don't have a degree in, in, or a license in, in counseling, um, but I can, I can mentor and I can offer one on one, um, Not sessions necessarily, but hey, they got this going on.

Let's talk for, let's talk for a half hour. Uh, so that's something I want to add to it. I want to add, um, I want to bring in more varied guests. [00:05:00] So, break out of not just the fire service, but bring in more nurses, more trauma doctors, more veterans, more active duty military. Let's, let's. Let's, let's really figure out how closely related we are in all this shit to each other and not just as firefighters.

TJ: How many episodes are you up to now? That I've been wanting to ask for a while. 

Stack: Last week was 95. 

TJ: 95, dude. God, I remember it was one of the first ones 

Stack: when You were number two or three? That 

TJ: was single digits. That's still pretty, pretty wild. 

Stack: Oh, yeah. You were, you were the first one to actually come in and sit down.

And record a show with me and it was a disaster that day because there was a lot of guesswork going in going on that day. I 

TJ: mean we were still dealing with a bit of a tech issue this morning so not much has changed. Not much has changed. I'm just glad you didn't end up being a serial killer because I remember I like rolled up in middle, I mean far away from me, Virginia.

Well, 

Stack: and you make it sound [00:06:00] like it's in the middle of nowhere, but it's, it was Prince William County and it's Bristol, Virginia. So, for me, it's bumfuck 

TJ: nowhere. I had to get up, like, super early, drive to this, like, restaurant that everybody was supposed to be getting together and having breakfast at. And it's just you and me.

I'm like, I'm definitely going to get turned into a skin suit by the end of the day. 

Stack: And you were episode four, by the way. I just checked. I always 

TJ: lose track. Oh, I like that because that's my that's my birthday month. You know, like even numbers. What? Wait, your birthday is April, April, April 21st. All right.

April 4th. Oh, hell yeah! Yeah. Wait, that Now we gotta start worrying about the zodiac signs. That would make you Well, we're not gonna get 

Stack: married, so it doesn't fucking matter. 

TJ: An Aries? I think? I'm Aries. Yeah, so, cause I'm barely a Taurus. And I hope there's like, the crystal toting zodiac people in our show currently.

Running all their computations and whatnot. So 95 These two should never work together. Are you kidding me? We have so much fun. Heh heh. [00:07:00] I, I feel that my crackhead energy would balance out your stoicism. 

Stack: So what about you? What'd you do this year that you're proud of? 

TJ: Ha ha, homie, um, Honestly, with the show, I was going to say, with life, mostly surviving.

With the show, there was a bit of a change at the beginning of the year in how things were done. And I think the part that I'm most proud of is being able to find the identity for Keep the Promise, because it is so easy for us to go into these projects and say, I'm only going to bring in X, Y, and Z people, only going to talk to them, and just like we just, like you just mentioned, maybe I'm just only going to talk about fire department people.

And I'm proud of the fact that I've been able to start teasing out stories from everyday friends, colleagues. People I haven't talked to in years whose stories are so relevant to what we do. My [00:08:00] buddy Dave Smith with his time at the Center for Excellence. Super chill about talking about that. Uh, my friend Barrett talking about Mississippi Smoke Diver program.

Um, One of our still recruits, Katie, I just dropped her like the third part of her episode, uh, two weeks ago. And she left her original fire department job to go help evacuate Afghans when Kabul and when the entire nation of Afghanistan fell to the Taliban in 2021, she evacuated over 3000 people. Like she was part of this incredible chain of people and events that helped get people away from basically the clutches of death.

And these are the stories that are sitting there. In plain sight in our friends and colleagues and being able to get those out so that others can learn from them or that others just recognize. The amazing humanity that surrounds us. [00:09:00] That's probably my proudest achievement. 

Stack: Yeah, I think that I definitely tried to go with a more varied group of guests this year.

I think that I was able to, I think once I finally got used to saying, okay, you know what, what's the worst someone could say is no. No, I don't want to come on your show. Okay. And I've had one person say that to me, you know, no, I don't think I'm a fit for your show. And that was because she felt she was more cops centered than, than, than firefighter centered.

And so that's, that's on me for not explaining that well enough to that. Yes, I'm a firefighter, but this show isn't necessarily firefighter based. Um, it's definitely how it started, but that's not where it needs to be. You know, it's this, this, this subject of mental health is, is so much wider than just what we do in the fire service.

But it's funny. You talked about your, your recruit there. What'd you say? Your name was Katie, Katie. Yeah, I had a woman on, her name was Alex Potter and she's out of Alaska now, but she, um, She spent time in Afghanistan and let's see, she, I [00:10:00] get it right. She started in India, Uganda, Jordan, headed to, uh, Yemen and Iraq actually.

And she met her, well, she's, she met her husband in. Along the way and, and they did, uh, forward, forward medical care for Iraqi civilians and, and even for some of the, the, uh, Iraqi, like the Taliban and those forces, the, the bad guys, so to speak, fall into that as well. And she was just a fascinating human being whose, whose husband was unfortunately killed over there in, in, um, excuse me, I'm drawing a blank.

It was, uh, God damn it. Ukraine is where he was killed. Oh damn. He was out recent trying to set up a, he was trying to set up a hospital and he took a, took an anti-tank round to the back of the ambulance. He was standing in God. Um, and so he was, he was killed instantly. But it's her story of trying to get his story out there and where she's going with everything.

She's one of those people that just never sits still. She's been a [00:11:00] smoke jumper. She's been a humanitarian, she's a trauma nurse. She's, she's still trying to find her. She's trying to get into some of them. Toughest jobs in the military as we speak. Uh, she's just a fascinating person. And so that's kind of what I mean by getting that wide and varied.

Guest base. 

TJ: Yeah, it's, it's important not to pigeonhole ourselves and, but also it's also important to recognize those people who have so much value to offer right under our noses. Most people are not going to think that a recruit, even though she's got a shit ton of experience, but they're not going to think that a recruit like Katie has much to offer in the way of anything because, oh, she's still in her recruit year.

Oh, what is she going to have to bring into the fire service? But once you start peeling those layers of people's lives, you know, you and I both had lives well before the fire service. Oh yeah. And things that some people know about, things that some people don't know about, and like [00:12:00] entire lifetimes before we landed in a uniform in a fire engine.

And being able to peel those layers of people and bring it full circle to how it can help somebody else, I think that's, That's an important calling to answer with, with our platforms, with the stuff that we're doing here, because it's 

Stack: definitely an important calling. Yeah. I 

TJ: don't want to get roped into that circle jerk of rah, rah strategy tactics, aggressive interior attack, like the same old song and dance that we've been hearing for decades.

The masses eat it up. Don't get me wrong. Like people absolutely love that. Also, don't get me wrong. I am not a pansy. I do love firefighting and doing cowboy shit and Having to explain myself to chiefs and shit like that But there's a lot more that that we can do with these platforms instead of just going with the flow and and posting, you know fireporn videos which I'm guilty of and [00:13:00] then posting, you know, some like regurgitated Textbook, caption, which like, again, we've all, we've all seen it.

We've all done it. These platforms give us so much more, so much more reach, so much more ability to, to touch lives in, in a meaningful 

Stack: way. You know, I said it, I don't know when I, I don't, I think you and I talked about it at one point where. I don't probably a year ago now that every time I put a story out, I see a piece of myself in the story.

And that's even more so this year, I think that I can't get away from how intertwined we all are in the fire service or first responders, even veterans, you know, that trauma, whatever trauma you experienced or whatever bullshit we experienced on the job, everyone experiences it. And we all like to think that we're alone.

And, uh, I think that's been the biggest part is just knowing that, that, uh, Whatever I'm going through, other people are doing it. You know, I talked about this year being rough with family issues and my mom died in [00:14:00] Halloween night, um, and just the outpouring of support from followers. And then people going, Hey, you know what?

My dad died around the same. There was one gentleman said my dad died around the same time and. It helped him just to know that he's not experiencing those moments of grief and pain alone in a sense, but everyone goes through those same feelings of trying to wrap your head around it. And, and it's funny, cause you mentioned what about a year?

And I took stock the other day and I, and I, I think back five or six years and it's been this tumultuous rollercoaster for me for, for like five or six years between, uh, I've had, I've had three deaths between two good friends and my mom dying. In five years, um, I've had a divorce. I've had, you know, just turmoil in, in some, some professional turmoil, more personal turmoil, and I'm trying to come out that other end.

And now that my mom has died, I kind of see it as this, this moment to go, okay, [00:15:00] let's turn a page. Let's, let's figure out where we go from here. And so Um, to say that I didn't get as much done in the year that I planned, that I would want to have gotten done. I think that at some point I found a stagnation that I need to kick myself in the ass and get out of.

TJ: Well, and I think two points to that, and let's rewind to what you're saying about seeing parts of yourself in every story that you tell. Something that I don't think either one of us realized when we started down this path is how important Um, Two way communication is with our community, because all it takes is one person to reach out and say, Hey, I found the story meaningful.

Hey, I enjoyed this content. Some kid yesterday sent me a dm on instagram was like, listen, I don't know if you're ever going to read this message, but I'm like 16 17. I want to make firefighting my profession. I'm getting so much out of your [00:16:00] stuff. If you do see this, thank you so much. And You know, it kind of, it floored me because I've been on that, on that end where I reach out to what I think is some, some person who's never going to see me.

And when I replied, this kid was over the moon. Yeah. So excited. I was like, look, listen, anything that I can do to help you, let me know. And, and just keep grinding and being that sort of mentor that I don't know if either of us had is so important, but also getting. Getting that bit of feedback from, from the community just kind of, kind of helps push us a little bit more and it's, it's such an underrated thing.

And, 

Stack: the, the, and I, sorry to interrupt. No, go for it. On your toes there. Um, but I'm your guest so, if I can deal with it. Uh, now I kind of, I just drove myself out of my own thought. How, how's that for ADHD? Uh, huh. Fuck, I forgot where I was going with that. Oh, I was, you said people reaching out in, [00:17:00] in the blue and, and to me, this, this show that I do, I'm, I've not monetized it yet.

I'm working on some sort of a monetization, but I haven't monetized it yet. And so it's a, it's a kind of a full-time job for no money. So, uh. Yeah, I put out four shows, four or five shows a month and which is insane and it can be insane. It's, it's, you know, I get it packaged up on a Tuesday, drop it on a Wednesday, turn around and pick what show I'm going to do next.

And, and it's rent, slather, repeat, you know? Um, and so, yeah, one, one of the ones I, I fucked it up. Go ahead and call attention to it. Um, that's what editing is for, except you won't edit it out. You'll highlight it. You don't know me. Uh, yeah, right. Uh, so I've, I've hit some bumps in the road where I'm like, man, this is just frustrating.

Um, I'm not doing this for anything, which is not true because I'm doing it for, for a damn good reason. But, uh, sometimes it becomes a slog and, and I go back, I think I'm done. And [00:18:00] recently I keep joking and a hundred seems like a really good number to just. Cut and run. But then I get a message from, you know, from somebody and it comes, it always seems to come at just the right time.

And I get one that says, listen, because of you, I sought out help and now I'm doing this or, or because of you, I'm now paying more attention to what I do for myself outside of the job or whatever it is. It's even the smallest ones are, are, are payment for it. And it's, it's amazing to hear. I just, you know, I don't want to Sound like, um, I don't want to sound too cheap or too cheesy, but I'm just happy that people are listening, you know?

TJ: Yeah, that's, that's payment enough. I, we go into this thing knowing that we're not going to make, we're not going to make millions out of this. We're not. Joe Rogan or Jocko or Tim Ferriss or any of these guys, we are just trying to give voice to the ideas that we have never gotten to really explore before and also give that voice to the people [00:19:00] whose stories are amazing, who otherwise may not be heard, and having people just tune in and listen is, um Yeah, that in and of itself is, is enough of a pat on the back to, to keep going.

Although I also relate to that, that feeling of the void of being able to say, you know what, I have full control to just pull this plug. Once I get to a point if I've, I've contemplated so many times and I go back and forth, I'm like, I need to kill TJ leather or I need to kill, keep the promise. Like one of the two has got to go because I'm, I'm spread so thin.

And then I sit there and I just revel in that. Um, almost that power of being able to say, I am, I am a master of my own destiny. I can be done with these projects and move on to the next one. It's kind of horrifyingly intoxicating. 

Stack: [00:20:00] It is. And quite often I lean the other direction. I'm like, okay, what else can I do with this?

You know? Mm-Hmm, , what, what's the next show I can do? Or what's the, what's the, what's, what show can I add in and, and do on the side as a, as a side hustle to side hustle. Right, right, right. And, and I've always said it, I, I, I think I said it in an intro just recently. I, I, I want something with some levity and I need to find a, a way to introduce, to, to create a show that, that brings some, some laughter to, to not just my life, but anybody else's life.

Weren't 

TJ: we talking about that like a 

Stack: year ago? We were, we were talking about a lot of things a year ago, but yeah, uh, levity. I think that I, I think that we could balance out a show pretty well with, with just dark humor from the fire service. Um, people listening to it would think that we need to be committed.

Probably 

TJ: there was, yeah, there was, there was a recruiter stationed yesterday and he, um, You know, the officers left the, the table after dinner. We hadn't even cleaned up [00:21:00] and the kid, you could tell he was hesitant to ask, to ask some tough questions about a, um, a dark past of our department, because just like any department, we have fuck ups and we have people who have done stupid shit and for the people who were not around when all it happened, all they hear are these like horrible rumors.

So when we finally got out of him. What he was asking and we confirm we're like, Oh yeah, all of this went down. Like it was awful. I got swept under the rug. People went to jail, yada, yada, yada, yada. Um, the humor began and let's just say that. Every single Catholic school teacher that I had will probably willingly crucify me if they heard the stuff we talked about and this kid was like, yo, you guys were able to take such a fucked up topic and somehow [00:22:00] make a running joke out of it and make it kind of funny, but make it extra awful like this poor kid was horrified and it's, I think, I think when we get to that humor part of the, of the side gig, like you said, We got to be careful not to end up in a padded room.

Stack: Yeah, I, one day at work, I think it was the station I'm at now that I've been at for about a year now. Somebody said, what's the most, what's the funniest call you've ever run? And when a fireman says, what's the funniest call, you know that it's not just humor. It has to be some tragedy in there as well, because that's what makes the humor for us.

And I told my story and they all looked at me like, these are firemen. They looked at me with the jaws dropped a little bit. Well, well, we're fucking done. You win. They're like, we can't top it. So we're not even going to try. And I'm like, well, Jesus, I just, just, it happened. And it was funny. And it was, yeah.

And I didn't mean to, cause I wanted to hear what their stories were. But mine was just, [00:23:00] just. Well, out there, they weren't going to top it, but I don't know how I tell that story on a podcast and have people not fire, fire related go, Oh, that's, that's funny because it wasn't, she lost a baby. It wasn't funny.

Right. You know, it just wasn't funny. But the way that the call was dispatched and the notes were written, I couldn't help but laugh. Well, 

TJ: and that brings up the topic of not just Yeah, it's, it's how we deal with things because we are masters of finding that levity and the humor in even the most fucked up situations because otherwise we would go absolutely insane.

And we are good at, I don't want to say compartmentalizing, but we're good at, at editing out those parts where, okay, this part is. It's pure drama and human suffering and sadness. I will be present, I will be an [00:24:00] empathetic human being, but everything leading up to and after, it's game on, because maybe, what was that, that was cool, um, maybe the dispatch notes were just completely jacked, maybe, maybe one of the guys was running on the scene and ate shit, and that is the funniest thing at this point, you know, and, and it's, it's some of these messed up calls that just.

Bring out the funniest but but we have to we we had one we had one yesterday. There was a Double shooting. I I don't know I think one of the kids ended up not making it like just just awful and then we started talking about the previous call so we'd had at that apartment complex and The previous shootings, the guy who got shot one time and managed to like jump out of a second floor window, broke his leg and kept running as the shooter kept taking shots at him from like a vantage point, like the mental image.

People were talking about it like, Oh, it's like duck hunt [00:25:00] on Nintendo, which we're talking about a human being getting shot at, but we kind of have to make that levity because otherwise we have to come to grips with the fact that there's evil people among us. Willing to take 

Stack: lives. Yeah, and don't, don't tell me, anybody that's listening, it's been in the fire service for, for any amount of time.

Don't tell me you haven't made mention of the word of the game Frogger when there's been a pedestrian struck. Oh, Jesus Christ. 

Hey friends, I want to take a quick moment to ask you to support the show by leaving a rating and a review on your favorite platform. Your support means the world to us, and it helps spread the message to even more people. We've gotten thousands and thousands of listeners, and those high ratings help our show become more discoverable, allowing us to reach even more listeners and make an even greater impact.

So, if you've enjoyed what you've heard so far, Please take a moment to leave a rating and a review. It only takes a few seconds and it makes a huge difference. Thank you so much. And [00:26:00] now let's get back to the show.

TJ: Yeah. 

Stack: So, we, we all do it in some manner. 

TJ: Oh, I had not used that term since, actually. Yeah, the morning after Halloween, back in like 2016, this, this girl wrecked her car coming back from a Halloween party in the median of 95 at like 2 in the morning, so relatively minimal traffic, shot across four lanes, hit in the woods.

The cops, the first, you know, the first rescue assignment showed up, didn't find anybody, they went home. I guess she fell asleep in the woods because when she came back, like when she woke up, it was like 7. 30 in the morning, more traffic, she tried to run all the way back across four lanes. That doesn't work.

Yeah, I think you can tell what the outcome was. It's um, it's a bad day when, when the people on scene have thermal imagers combing the woods because you're trying to figure out where the body parts went. Yeah. And yeah, that was the last time we used the term frogger. Anyway, we have gone [00:27:00] completely off the rails.

So two things. Remember that, that I, that I wanted to say, um, the other one, you were 

Stack: How can we go off the rail if you say you had no plan for this show? Wow, you're going to out me like that. Yeah, you told me specifically you had no plan and you were proud of the action. No, I had two things. And now I've gone off the rails?

You, fuck off. 

TJ: Those who know me, those who have been on the show, those who have met me in real life, know that my engineering streak and my OCD side really shines when I'm getting ready for a podcast episode, because I will come up with. 10 to 50 questions of what to ask the guest. We don't have to follow.

I always say we don't have to follow them. It's just a loose structure, mostly because you ambushed me with a bunch of questions. The first time we sat down and I said, never again. And I mean, Katie, one of the latest ones, she got mad at me. She's like, bro, you said it was going to be like five to 10 questions and you gave me three pages worth.

Yeah. And we [00:28:00] obviously didn't cover all of them, but, um, you know, it's, it's a running joke and, you know, and our friends know that when I sit down without a plan and without anything written down, I freak. So this is a moment of growth. It is. It is. It is. I literally reached out to you. I was like, Hey, let's sit down.

I don't know what we're going to do. I don't know what we're going to say. Cause every time that you, that you hit me up and you say, Hey, let's just talk about nothing. I'm like, Oh God damn it. What? What? 

Stack: Those are the times I don't get responses back. You just, because I think you're just over there in a corner glitching 

TJ: out.

I am. I'm like fetal position. I'm rocking like solitary, 

Stack: stuck in the corner. Oh, 

TJ: which by the way, it's going to kick on. Wow. Wow. Perfect timing, bro. My Roomba is going to kick on in five minutes, so I got to remember to turn it off because I'll get that SOS. Um, the second thing that I was going to say before we got derailed yet again is that [00:29:00] maybe it's our neuro spicy way of thinking.

Maybe it's just the way our minds work. But I don't think we're ever satisfied with the stuff that we've done. We always, no, it's, we look at the people that you and I have observed some of the people whom we dislike and we see how much. They pat themselves on the back. Hell, we work with people like everybody listening has worked or gone to school or met somebody in life who has their entire I love me, like scroll ready to go and they will shove it in your face or they will sit there and read it at nighttime.

I believe that you and I struggle. To find the successes, whereas the failures or the setbacks are so glaringly obvious that we devote our entire times to them. 

Stack: Yeah, I think when I listen to a recording or I listen to a show, I hear the mistakes. I don't hear the, [00:30:00] I don't hear the good from a show. I hear, I hear, uh, I glitched there or.

Or my, my go to words, like, so, I hear, well, I hear how many times I say so in an episode and I want to kick myself. Other than the fact that we just got out, you know, an episode talking about survival of a suicide attempt and, and how he's, how he's, he or she is, is just like succeeding and thriving in life now.

But I hear the word so in my voice, not, not the success of the show. 

TJ: Right, right. Not, yeah. And then. That's another reason I wanted to chat today, to, to make sure we highlight, we, we force ourselves to come out of our, I don't want to say self deprecating, but our super highly critical mindset to be like, hey, this is what we have done.

This is how we have succeeded. 

Stack: I don't know how many times you've sent me a text going, cut the shit. About self deprecation because I'm the king of self deprecation. [00:31:00] A lot. We all know that and it's, uh, I don't know why that is, but I do it quite often. And when I, when I do it, I, I normally wake up the next morning to a text from you saying you'd got to 

TJ: cut the shit out.

Well, here's my hypothesis. I think that we are so in tune to people who are so full of themselves that we never want to be anything like them. So we feel that any accomplishment, any achievement we have, we have to almost minimize for fear of coming across as that selfish, look at me, I'm amazing person because we hate that person and we never want to be them.

Stack: Yeah, no, I do. And I, and I, um, I think one of the reasons, and I'm searching for a lyric here real quick. So if you see, I'm distracted while I'm talking. One of the reasons that I can do what I do with the topics, you know, interview people about, um, Some very, very serious topics, you know, with, uh, [00:32:00] suicide or, or addiction or whatever it is.

Um, the reason I can do this because I hate small talk, you know, I, I hate small talk. And so my, my focus is on the meat and potatoes. It's on the heavy stuff. Um, give me something when we talk, give me something of value or, or it's a very difficult conversation for me to hold. Right. Because sometimes it's the opposite.

People don't want to have those, those heavy conversations. Cause those are the ones that are difficult for them to hold. Yeah. So there's a, there's a singer songwriter at a Nashville or Nashville area. I think he's actually out of Oklahoma if I'm, if I'm correct. And his name is John Moreland. I don't know if you've ever heard of him.

Um, he's never going to be a huge star. It's just, he doesn't have the right persona for it, but his songwriting is some of the best I've ever heard. And. One of his, one of his, uh, one of his lyrics says, uh, So darling, let the charmers lean the room, they're drowning out the [00:33:00] national moon. I want to learn exactly who you are.

And so it's saying to me, like, let them, let them bullshit the other ones. I want to know what you are. I want to know the essence of somebody. I want to know what makes somebody, what broke somebody and what brought them back from that. Right. 

TJ: Right. That's one of the reasons you and I get along so well.

Right. Because we've talked about at these big events where it just turns into a drunk fest and speaking of drunk fest, here comes my drunken robot that I need to shut off real quick. But we've talked about those events where it's just, you know, a drunk fest, uh, look at me. I'm amazing. I go to fires. I do all these things for all these different organizations.

We like to cut through that noise and get to the essence of what makes that person tick. And it's okay. I'm not saying that, look, I've had, I've had fun at these conferences. I, I used to go to [00:34:00] everything that I could get my hands on, training days, firemanship days. I, Christ, I would make the trip to Anniston like twice a year to go play with Hazmat.

Every single one of those like federal classes that I could go to for special ops, I would. And it just, for me, it just got to the point that I got, I got fed up and tired. Hmm. And, um, but I mean, there's value, there's value in all those, uh, the other thing that I wanted to talk about, for example, was the, um, the Brothers Helping Brothers conference in, in Ohio, the, the caliber of people, incredible, and, and you and I have been around for about the same time, I think you've got a couple of years on me, and, um, we remember how stigmatized and how bad juju it was to talk about anything mental health related.

Uh huh. And in 2023, to be able to go to a conference, [00:35:00] literally focused entirely on health and wellness for firefighters is. It's incredible. And it's, it, it feels good looking around and being like, okay, these folks are going to keep, they're going to keep carrying that torch. They're going to keep doing what needs to be done to make sure our people get taken care of.

Stack: Yeah. And, and those folks will, and hopefully it starts to entrench itself into the, into departments as well. Um, I, I still think it's, it's a slow moving beast. I still don't think departments know how to react to mental health crisis crises or, or issues. I think some, some are getting it more right than others.

Um, I think that, uh, I think there's just a lot of work to be done. 

TJ: There is. Now here's my question for you. Do you think that work needs to be done from the top down or people like us who are almost subversively doing it? And I say that because the more time I [00:36:00] spend in the fire service, the more faith I lose in all the different institutions and all these different organizations.

I gotta watch what I say before I end up, you know, getting disappeared and Jimmy Hoffin, but I think there comes a point that the powers that be and all these groups that are interested in changing things. It just to me, it just turns into a massive circle jerk. Look at me. I'm amazing. These are the things that we are doing.

And kind of like trickle down economics by the time it gets down to that rookie who is struggling, the message is so diluted, so fucked up that nothing happens. Whereas I feel that in doing what we're doing here, or in just being present at a firehouse, listening to these people, we can have a bigger effect.

Maybe my scope might be smaller, but having had a firefighter come to me and say, [00:37:00] I thought about taking my life last year, and you don't remember the conversation that we had, but just talking to you helped me take a step back and not jump off that ledge. That, for me, that was it. Like, I could have fucking left the fire department at that point and be like, I'm done.

I'm done. I saved one fucking life that I know for a fact. My life's work is fucking complete type thing. So where do you think the biggest or most meaningful change can come from? Top down, trickle down, you know, or answer bottom up. Are you going to take both? 

Stack: I knew it would be both. Yeah, because I can affect change on a personal level with.

with, with, with a coworker in a fire station, or if I'm detailed to another station and someone approaches me and says, man, I've listened to your show. And I think it's fantastic. And we get into conversation about mental health. That's my effect on them in the immediacy, but for the, for the organizational change to happen, there has to be the [00:38:00] buy in from the people up top and I'm.

I think that my department is in a period of growth and we have a new, we have a new fire chief and he's starting to institute some of his own changes and we're starting to see some of the effect. And I think that that's one of the things he could really make a difference with if he starts to pay more credence and less lip service than previous administrations did to mental health.

Um, it's kind of a challenge, you know, if I have yet to sit down and speak to him, I was out the day he came and introduce himself to my crew. Um, I was out a lot the last last little bit because of my mom's death, but I missed my chance to have some face time with him and I would love to have some face time with him.

And if I did, my challenge to him would be, you know, go out there. What can you do for mental health? And and and it's kind of like, if you can do it, get on it. Um, don't don't pay lip service. Just fucking do it. And, and that's to change the model the way it is, because the model is still this, [00:39:00] this, I, you know, as much as we want to say we've changed, it's still a SISM model.

It's still, if something happens, they're going to come into the firehouse and they're going to, they're going to have a, a post incident debrief and it's, and it's going to be the pressure, the same pressures. The young guys aren't going to speak because they're worried about what's going to be thought of them.

And the old guys aren't going to speak because they don't think they should, or they don't think they need to. Uh, that needs to be changed completely. And it's, it's, that hasn't been, that hasn't taken hold yet. 

TJ: Yeah, I am a big hater for the SISM system. Having been through, having had that shit shoved down our throats after we lost Nate, it was, it was disgusting, and that's going to be part of my crusade for this coming year, is telling that story in a meaningful way.

When I sat down with you that first, Super chaotic interview. There was a lot of rage that I hadn't come to grips with [00:40:00] yet. And as the time goes on, because now we're going on like two years since you and I sat down that first time. As the time goes on, and I get older and hopefully wiser, but as I learn more.

I realized that it's an important story and I have to tell it correctly because in the aftermath, we did a lot of things wrong and we did a lot of things that to this day we are seeing the second, third, fourth order consequences of of what went on and as long as I have a voice, I'm going to tell that story.

And it might help or it might not, but it, it needs to be said. It needs to be said that in my opinion, come after me if you want. But like that system system is, is broken. It's um, it alienates people. It puts us in a horrible spot, but also the peer system has to be [00:41:00] kind of tweaked. And you have to pay attention to your people because assigning a peer.

To somebody just so they don't quote go kill themselves in the bathroom and quote it's not the right way to do things I'm looking around. I'm like, why the fuck do I have a puppy dog person following me whom I don't even know Yeah I found out they just didn't want me to go like I don't know hang myself with a shower curtain like

shower curtain rod is Flimsy ain't gonna hold my fat ass up. There's um There are things to do to, um, to change so that when it inevitably happens again, we can soften that blow. It's still going to suck, but it doesn't have to. 

Stack: Well, I think that's the, the win is, is the key word is everyone keeps saying if it happens and it's just a matter of when I, I, I think, I think as pressures We're seeing a lot of different pressures right now from social media, from the [00:42:00] inflation, from interest rates, you know, for housing, for food, all of that, all this, all these pressures are, are starting to load on people more and more and more and more, and we're still dealing with the bullshit of the job, which some of it is, is Fidelity Investments.

Some of it you can't escape. Some of it can be, can be modified in some manners the way that administration or, or your, your, uh, chain of command deals with stuff can be, can be moderated some, but I think that we're more and more danger of something like that happening in, in departments right now just because of how much pressure's out there, how much we are, we're, we're scraping to get by at times.

And I think that being in tune with your people and even as someone who, who more often rides a backseat than a front seat, you can be in tune with, with everybody. And you can, you can affect change or at least say, Hey, I'm here for when you need something and not even waiting for them to [00:43:00] come to you, but just going and checking, Hey, how you doing today?

What, what, what happened last night? What happened, you know, this weekend on your four day? What, what, what was it? Um, as opposed to, You take that break and you go away from each other and there's been no contact from people and you said it to me the other day, you said that when people go away, you're still going to be there checking to see how I'm doing with, with the loss of my mom and, and that's obvious, you see it already, you see people, you know, that that's kind of ebbed away already because it's just natural.

People don't want to talk about that. And it makes sense. I, you know, I don't want to talk about my mom's death every day, but there's sometimes where it's nice to have someone check in and it, when it first happens, you get it all over the place. It's like, Oh Jesus, all these people are checking and it's great.

And then a week later, you're like, well, I got crickets now. And that's what we need to be better about is not giving people crickets when they need, they need our ear. Yeah, we 

TJ: are good at coming up with these big [00:44:00] elaborate memorial services. Remember ceremonies. All of these, like, super crazy events. Why don't we take all of that effort and concern, and instead of concentrating on one single spot, we just spread it out over time.

Because people like you and I, we're not big fans of the pomp and circumstance. We're not big fans of, hey, somebody bring a wreath, hey, somebody play the bagpipes, or do flyovers, or do all this shit. Why not take all that energy and spread it out so that check in on somebody two months from now, three months from now, a year and a half, three years, right?

As people start, as people who say never forget, start forgetting. Get that out there, like get, get that, that concern and, and spread it out. And I had something else and it just completely escaped me because I literally saw a dog walking down the street and my mind just [00:45:00] completely went on the fritz.

Pretty much a 

Stack: true definition of ADHD. 

TJ: I'll ask my therapist later on today. I'm like, do you still think that I'm not neurodivergent? 

Stack: Hmm. Uh. I signed up. Uh, I made, I did the first step in getting tested, so I'm going to find out if I am 

TJ: bro. I'm pretty sure I am because I took an internet test. Okay. Like, oh, well, that shit is scientifically appropriate and proven.

And I think I'm like an eight. No, I don't think I'm an eight plus. I think I'm like a C student when it comes to being on the spectrum. So, yeah, yeah. 

Stack: I don't know if it's ADHD because I can sit still I just can't focus so I don't have any of the good part of ADHD. I've got the bad part where I just can't do shit.

It's like, oh, yeah, that that electric bill was due six weeks ago. You know, that's my ADHD. 

TJ: Or you go to pay it and you don't feel like paying it. So instead you deep clean the house, update your computer and you know, iron your [00:46:00] uniforms. Yeah. 

Stack: I'm the one that, that has the appointment at three in the afternoon.

That means my day is booked. 

TJ: So, 

Stack: yeah, so it's, it's, I think those are some of the steps I have to take for myself and in taking that step and trying to find an answer to stuff like that will help the show and, and. Ineventuality because it'll, it'll, I'm not looking to get on meds, even though, yeah, I'd love to see what the, the effect would be, uh, no, don't do it.

No, I'm not a, I'm a, you know, what my stance is on, on prescriptions and, and, and medicate medicine and, and, uh, Um, but I think having some knowledge of what it is and trying to find a framework to work within it, it will, will benefit me and benefit the show. 

TJ: I'm also in the, the nomads nation. I got on Wellbutrin for a bit at the beginning of the year and that shit almost killed me.

Yeah. I'm a hairy fucker. Like I sweat in [00:47:00] 40 degree with, I'm sitting here wearing shorts and a t shirt and it's like 30 degrees outside. And I found that taking those stupid pills. Anytime I was just moving, I would just be drenched in sweat. Like my body temperature would go through the roof. And then I started thinking like, what's going to happen when I have to put on turnout gear in the summer, I guess it's going to be horrible.

I'm going to be dead. And I guess everyone's advice, I quit the shit cold Turkey and. Thank God, because it would have been horrible for me. 

Stack: Yeah, I, I, I'm obviously, not obviously, I don't know how many of your listeners listen to my show, but, uh, I'm a vocal advocate for other methods of, of medication. Um, I don't believe in, in big pharma.

I think that, that they've done more damage to this country than, than just about any other thing, maybe. Maybe insurance companies have done more damage. I'm not sure, but it's, uh, there's, there's been so much damage done by big pharma and it's, and it's, it's, [00:48:00] um, it doesn't benefit any of us to, to take, to take some of these pills because you just chase them down with the next pill to, to correct some of the issues caused by the first pill.

And I think it is, uh, I think there's some common sense things we can, we can all do to, to moderate our own behaviors. I'm not saying that pills are not necessary ever. I'm not saying that, but I don't, I think they're overprescribed. Agreed. 

TJ: Agreed. And you guys, you can use cannabis at your department, right?

Stack: Oh yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I made a mistake the other day. I, well, I don't know if we call it a mistake or not. I, um, I thought it was a 10 milligram and it was a 25 milligram. And I could not understand why I was so fucked up. I was just like, I don't, I gotta go to bed. And then I woke up next morning. I was like, Oh, that explains it.

And it was, that was a 25 milligram. Oh, 

TJ: dude, we had this older couple, like they were fine. Older. I'm sorry. Yeah. It's, it's fine. Older for the stuff that they were doing, they were like mid [00:49:00] seventies. I want to say, and it was just after Maryland had legalized it. And they went out to a dispensary, got some edibles and then went up to the local like brewery and hung out.

And we got the call for, you know, chest pains, like dry mouth, took some drugs type thing. And both like, you know, he's. He's behind the driver's like he's behind the wheel and she's sitting there. She's giggling. He's He's got the old the old dry mouth also terrified like paranoid as could be Trying to explain and he's like I'll do we each want to only took like five of those little gummies And we're like, I like where where are they?

They pop the trunk cuz they were terrified to get it of like the police catching them. So I put everything in the trunk Oh, yeah, they sat in there. They took five. I think it was 0. 3 Grams. So the dude in the like [00:50:00] each one, I think, I think the math came out to like over a gram of THC in like per person and they had like, they started feeling the effects.

So, you know, no medical attention. We just call them a lift and the guy's like, what am I going to do? And one of the dudes in the end is like, you're going to go home. You're gonna lay down on the grass and hold on to the world for real, for dear life, because you have a hell of a trip coming. Cause you're about to fall off the face of this earth.

Oh my god, I mean I was kinda jealous, I was like, I wanna be, I wanna have over a gram in my system, like I'd be in great fucking time right 

Stack: now. Probably gonna sleep for about 16, 17 hours.