033. Hanging Out With Our Friends and Going on Adventures: Jim's Crusade for Firefighter Health [Part 1]

Get ready for the beginning of an amazing two-part series with the remarkable Jim Burneka! In Part 1 of this  journey, we cover Jim's extensive career as a firefighter and his mission to promote health, wellness, and mental resilience within the firefighting community.

🔥 Join your host, TJ, as he uncovers the powerful insights and experiences Jim gained during his nearly 23-year tenure with the Dayton, OH, Fire Department. Discover the challenges and triumphs of his career and how they ignited his passion for firefighter well-being.

🌟 Jim's journey takes an extraordinary turn as he becomes a trailblazer in the fight against occupational cancer, presenting on cancer prevention across the United States and Canada. Learn what drove him to take on this critical cause and how it's reshaping the future of firefighter health.

🤝 Brothers Helping Brothers, an organization founded by Jim, is at the forefront of peer support and mental health awareness for firefighters. Explore how this organization is making a profound impact and creating a community of support that transcends departmental lines.

🧠 We delve into the vital topic of mental health in the firefighting world. Jim shares his insights on the unique stressors firefighters face and the importance of breaking down the stigma surrounding mental health support.

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Transcript

Jim: Go ahead and go. We. This is look, this is, I don't know where we're gonna go, but I know it's gonna be fun. 

TJ: It is. That is a perfect start. Ladies and gentlemen. Welcome to today's episode of the Keep the Promise Podcast. I have with me a man that has spent the last hour, hour and a half discussing wrestling with me, OJ Simpson Horses, and a host of other controversial topics that if we speak about, we're probably gonna get canceled.

And Jim and I first met back in, was it October? It was October in, uh, exotic Beaver Creek, Ohio at the, uh, firefighter Health and Wellness Conference put on by Brothers Helping Brothers, which is the reason that I want to get him on. And as we go on through this episode, you're gonna realize that he has a, a ton of experience.

BI. An incredible amount of life stories and see a humor that is befitting a true fireman. So, Jim Burneka, welcome to the show. I appreciate you being here and all the laughs that we have shared along the way.

Jim: Thank you tj. It's already been just pure gold this morning. So

TJ: You say gold, I say chaos.

Jim: Yeah. Fair enough. Tomato, tomato.

TJ: Tomato. Tomato. Oh, I used that line on somebody, the other Oh yeah. No, it, that's another inappropriate thing. But yeah, I was messing with one of our, uh, EMS captains and my favorite thing to do is text him football stats on things because he knows I don't care about football, but I intentionally mess up the names or I mix sports together and he gets so mad and my reply is always tomato, tomato.

And then that gets him even, even angrier after the 

Jim: I, I do kind of the same, like I, uh, I like when somebody scores a touchdown. I like to say home run and ridiculous stuff like that. I.

TJ: Bro, we are kindred spirits because I do the same, like I'll kick the door open to the kitchen and ask them what sporty ball is going on and if somebody did a sports down or my favorite is this one got something thrown at me. Um, I asked them if the United States ravens were playing in the World Cup and there was, there were a lot of projectiles that came my way at that point.

So football season is a lot of fun for me, but also a safety hazard because of my smart ass mouth.

Jim: That's good. I appreciate that. I can appreciate that.

TJ: I was gonna say, I'm glad I have somebody like you on my side that likes to, to stir the pot,

Jim: I, my entertainment is messing with people, like that's,

that's how I get my kicks.

TJ: Which I can only assume is something that you did in your time in, in the Dayton Fire Department. Is it not?

Jim: Absolutely. A hundred percent. Yeah. That's how

the day 

went by. 

TJ: about the,

Jim: No, I mean it's

TJ: tell me about the, the firefighting career.

Jim: it was just fun. I mean, you know, I mean, I go back to even when I started, uh, I wrote, you know, before when I was still a little punk teenager. Little was one of the key things too. That is back then.

TJ: Yeah. You're still a punk.

Jim: Uh, well, yeah, but I'm just not little, but definitely still a punk. Uh, no, just riding along with

TJ: Hey.

Jim: Yeah, riding with my dad's friend and like, I remember that first night, just the camaraderie that was there and just how much fun they had. And I just, you know, remember thinking like, this is for me, like, you know, hang out with my friends, have fun and go on adventures. I mean, that's, that's kind of how I, I labeled it back then and, and, uh, I'd label a lot differently or I'd add stuff to it, but it's still, when it comes down to it, that's what we do.

We hang out with our friends and go on adventures.

TJ: I think that's gonna be the, um, the title of this podcast episode. Hang out with our friends and Go on Adventures. It's interesting explaining the fire service to non-fire department people where they look at you funny. I'm like, no, I'm literally at like sleepover camp with my homies. Like it's

Jim: absolutely.

TJ: 24 hours just racing hell and then getting to spend the night with them.

Jim: Exactly. It was great.

TJ: So, yeah. Tell me more, tell me more. How, how much time did you spend in in Dayton?

Jim: 22 and a half is, is what I ended up with. Um, and, uh, the first, uh, 20, 21 years of that was I'm in, in the streets doing the job, and at the end I was, they created a, a role as the, the wellness coordinator. So I went on 40 hours and, uh, my, my job and instead of, you know, worrying about the lovely citizens of Dayton was to worry about the actual fire department employees and really just try to take care of them and their families.

And, 

and 

I, I mean, 

that was, it was good and bad. 

Uh, 

it was good because, 

you know, 

obviously they're my coworkers and I want to take care of them, but at the same time, they're my coworkers and it's a lot easier, 

you know, 

helping somebody. 

You know, 

on a call and you hand 'em off to, 

um, 

the hospital 

and you're, 

and you're done.

You know, 

you don't know 'em, it's not personal. You did your job, you're done with them. It's not that simple though. When it was your own guys and gals, 

you're, 

you're invested and, 

you know, 

I found myself just 

kind of 

strapping to them 

and, 

and going for the ride, 

you know, 

good and bad. 

So, uh, 

and I was, 

I don't, 

I don't think I just, I wasn't prepared for that being the first person in that position. 

Uh, 

I wa I just wasn't ready for that secondary, that vicarious trauma, any of that stuff.

TJ: yeah. Because it's pretty much impossible to divorce yourself from that outcome. And um, what came to mind is that I feel that that's an important position, especially for somebody with a lot of time in the department. And I've talked to a couple of other people about evolving as humans and evolving as firefighters, and I think as we spend more time, we start realizing that.

More time in the fire service, we start realizing that what matters is our people. And if we make sure our people are taken care of and they're healthy and they're happy, and they're safe, they can do the job. And I don't know, it's, it's almost like taking on that paternal role. You know what I mean?

Jim: It was, it was, and I and I, and I believe I, and I'm, it's crazy that I'm gonna say this. Throughout my career, there was definitely some maturity. That actually came about. And I know that's saying every, that's crazy after our conversation, before you hit the record button. But, but, uh, I mean, I, I was absolutely that immature punk kid that came on and had fun and did really stupid stuff.

But as I got older and somewhat wiser, like I, I, I definitely did change my attitude towards stuff. And, and I didn't, I wasn't, at the end, I wasn't as much of a play baby. Um, and, and I certainly, I, I think another thing too is I was, I was even that kind of, I would say bully, uh, quite honestly, you know? And I think, um, I was that guy that was, would jump out ahead at somebody and, and try to come after them with the hope that they want to come after me.

And, uh, so I was offensive so I didn't have to be defensive. I was that guy for a while too. And at something, you know, I can't tell you tj, like there wasn't like a single incident or anything else, but at some point I just, I kind of woke up and was like, stop being an a-hole. And, uh, and went from being that, that bully guy to actually being the guy that everybody actually trusted and they knew that I cared about them.

And, and I don't, again, I don't know what made me switch, but I'm glad I did. Um, and yeah, at the end it was a good thing, but I don't know how I got there to that point. I can't, I can't fill in that gap for you. I don't know, but I'm glad I did again.

TJ: I think it's probably that evolution. I, I think as we spent, like I said, as we spent time in the fire service, hopefully we evolve, right? Hopefully the gym at year 22, you know, for a fact. But hopefully it's not the same gym at year 0.5, right? Hopefully where I'm sitting now is not the same person that I was when I came in and there's that, that evolution puts us in the spot of, okay, it is time to reframe my mindset into caring for my people.

To the point of being a bully, that probably almost gave you more street cred in that the people who experienced you as that person before can now vouch. Like this dude is going to be an absolute pit bull when it comes to taking care of us. if he can channel that energy into that good path, then it's going to make it, it's gonna make everything, you're gonna get shit done pretty much.

Jim: I mean, I think you could, I think that's fair, fair to speculate that, but I'm not sure. I'm wondering if those, I actually think the opposite. I think those older guys were probably always wary of me. Like they knew, like they, they felt like they knew the real me. Like that guy was still in there and at any time could turn on him, you know?

Um, you know, so it, it was kind of, I think it, you know, it was independent of the person on, on what they felt about me. But I think, I think at some point my actions, I. My attitude did really speak for themselves. And even how my career ended. Like I very clearly fought for my guys. And you know, when you go to 40 hours and it's, this isn't the same for everybody, but it seems like a lot of times, at least where I'm at, you go to 40 hours and at some point they steal your soul at some point.

Yes. At some point you, you don't really, you're not really one for the people that you, you kind of, at some point it's, it becomes self-serving. Um, or you just, you get beat down so much that even if you wanna do good, like you're not really able to, you're very limited what you can, you know, uh, I think the Dane Fire Department is much like other departments out there too, where, you know, the fire chief is not the one who runs the department.

It's hr, you know, it's, it's stuff like that. So I know. My job was to care for the people. And I never went away from that. And, uh, I got, uh, it was almost, they felt like I was too much for the people if there is such a thing. Uh,

TJ: was gonna such.

Jim: there is such a thing. They, I mean, even I was called, I was told I was too, too union strong, which if that means that I'm for the people, then yes, yes, please, I will.

I'm, I'm union strong. But, um, and that, you know, and, and I, I know I got basically kicked outta that position and that really started my whole downhill, well, not started, but it, it definitely gained momentum after that point, kind of losing that purpose because I knew I was doing good. I knew how much my guys and gals were struggling and for them to just, you know, get rid of me, and, and it's like, you know who I am, you know what I do, you know how I react to things like.

Is this really a surprise? Like, what did you think I was gonna do in this position?

TJ: They probably expected you to sit there in a cubicle and be a company man and just do the bare minimum.

Jim: It wasn't my style.

TJ: Good, good. 

Jim: wasn't my style. And and I, and you know what though? Um, and it sucks how everything happened. And I think there's regrets actually on both sides. But I can go to sleep at night and my conscious is clear. 'cause I never, I never gave in, I never looked the other way. Um, I think if I would've done that, I probably would still be there.

But, you know, my, my conscious would be eating me alive right now.

TJ: Yeah. It, you didn't compromise. That is. In a day and age where we approach the fire service as a ladder climbing organization where we just try to appease the next rung so we can climb it. The few people who are uncompromising in their values and their morals, I think they're, they're the catalyst for change and they're the ones that, that hold the place together.

Jim: I like to think so,

TJ: So what was your job doing when, when you were at 40 hours doing the, the health and wellness stuff for, for your guys and gals?

Jim: you know, uh. They gave me a lot of, they gave me a long leash. Um, I had a lot of latitude and I think it was like they really let me pick and choose where I went and how I did things. Um, and I think beforehand I thought that they, like if you would've asked them like what they thought I was gonna concentrate on, I think they thought the focus that I would have would be really on the cancer stuff, because that was really what got me into the whole health and wellness stuff, was just occupational cancer.

And I had been doing that for so long, but, um, that's not really where I went. I, I did very little regarding that. What, what I ended up doing was, uh, I did a, a survey and like I already had kind of an idea of where the pulse was. I mean, at that time I was also the. The union's health and safety guy, which also made me the peer support coordinator.

So like I knew I had a, a pretty good idea of how the members were struggling and, but I wanted to actually be able to show it on paper like, what, you know, the facts are, you know. And so I did this survey. I took the Crews outta service one at a time. I had them fill out everything. And I was like, just be honest.

Just tell me the truth. Like nothing is going to happen if you're not able to tell me the truth. And what that survey really showed was they, they were struggling with behavioral health and we had, and it scared me. It still scares me how many people actually admitted that they had suicidal ideation and, and those are the ones that admitted it.

And it was a anonymous survey. Um, but I almost also think that there's probably a lot of people that still didn't trust, that still didn't tell the truth, but I had the numbers and it verified really my worst fear. And it, and also it, it kind of laid out the roadmap of what I was gonna do in that position, which was to just focus more than anything on behavioral health.

I think another big issue was sleep. Um, so that's another thing that I was able to tackle. Um, but it, you know, I had that roadmap and I just kind of followed that roadmap and it was, it was justified because of that survey. So they, they let me go, they let me just kind of do my thing initially.

TJ: Dude, so, I mean, I don't even know where to start because you've hit on topics that, that any listener knows I'm passionate about the, the mental health side. The, I, I always tell the story of I've, I had a firefighter who, who talked to me and said, Hey, um, you don't remember the conversation. We had a, like a, like a year or so ago, but I had my plans ready, I was gonna do it.

And sitting there and talking to you kind of made me do a double take and not go through with it. And it's. You, you hear that and you realize that like one of your friends, one of your colleagues, one of your brothers or sisters was sitting at the edge of that abyss and nobody would've known. And that's, you know, it just, for me, it sets alarm bells like, what can I, can I do more?

What am I not doing enough of? What am I doing too much of? So when you got those survey results, what, what were some, like, gimme a couple, like actionable things that, that you did, that you started implementing, be it the mental health, the sleep, uh, we'll we, we'll dig deep into cancer later on, but what are some of the things that you, you looked at the survey and you went, okay, this is how we make change now.

Jim: So I was actually able for the first time throughout my career to bring an outside speaker in. Um, I think bringing in subject matter experts from the outside, I think that has a lot of validity. Um, because I just don't think, like, I could preach to my guys and gals all day long and they're just gonna blow me off.

They're gonna be like, ah, just burn whatever. You know, we ended up bringing in Joe Terry, and, and I'm not sure if you're, if you're familiar with her or not, but her husband was, uh, the assistant chief of Covington, Kentucky Fire Department. He retired and, and a couple years later he, he completed suicide.

And so, you know, Joe is, Joe is this widow and she's just tells this story from her perspective and is so powerful. So, and she's so good and, but it just, it really, it tugs in your heartstrings. And I was able to bring her in and she told her story and it was, she really does a great job of describing PTSD.

And it was really the first opportunity. My guys and gals were looking at this, this PowerPoint slide and looking at basically the, you know, and she's explaining what qualifies for PTSD and they're looking at all this stuff and they're going, yep. Yep. Yep. And they're all at once during these sessions, they're realizing that they have PTSD, that they check the criteria and it's, again, it's day and fire.

We're, we're busy. We see a lot of screwed up stuff. Uh, you, there's no getting away from it, you know, where we work. And so they're seeing that and it's registering with them. And then at the same time, they're realizing as she's discussing stuff, oh my God, this job has changed me. And this is the reason.

Like it's, I'm not an asshole just to be an asshole. I'm an asshole from this job. And how it has actually changed my brain and every class. And, and we did. And I still to this day feel bad about it. We. I did four classes a day for three days in a row to get everybody, and it was way too much to do things with her.

Like I, I, I put her through hell that week. But it was, it was the only way to, 'cause again, it's like, it's like the department is like, yeah, you could bring her in her, but we only have the money for this year. We don't have it for next year. So, so we did it like, basically like, uh, it was the week between Christmas and New Year.

So, and

that's, I mean, that's, that's, it was horrible. But at the same time, it was my only chance I had. And so, uh, at the end of each session, I mean, clockwork, every one of these sessions, somebody would say, is this something that we could do with our spouses? Because they wanted to actually show their spouses like.

This is why I'm acting the way I'm acting this way.

Um, and we did that and it was so well received and, and I truly actually think if nothing else that saved marriages. Um, but on top of bringing Joe in, we also, and, and so the very next week that, that January 1st week, the union, um, had, uh, I don't know, got the services of a clinician to come in and do a checkup from the neck up for everybody.

So that was paid for. We had a, we had a mass shooting in our bar district in 2019 and nine individuals were, were killed. And, uh, it was, it was really hard on the fire department. Really hard on the police department. Uh, they did awesome, but because of that, marathon oil ended up giving the police union and the fire union each $25,000.

And so we used that money to bring in this clinician. And, um, so along with Joe talking about all these behavioral health issues and suicide and PTSD, like I was able to show, Hey, by the way, we, the union, uh, is bringing in, in this clinician that's trauma trained. She's already part of our peer support team and we're gonna be going around station to station, crew to crew throughout the year.

So it's like, not only did I bring up the problem and actually show, you know, what the issues are, but I did have that follow up with her. And I was, and that whole program, it went great. I just did a show with her talking about it on fire engineering that came out. On Friday. Um, and so Alison Feening a PS radio, but it, it, she describes just going through that program and, you know, when I, when I, when we did this program, I really thought that people would talk to her, but like, not really, really talk to her.

The, you know, for me the hope was that they would, if nothing else say hi, see her face, get a business card, and if something happened later on, they'd give her a call. Or as soon as she left the firehouse or as soon as they got home, they would call because they didn't want to talk about their stuff there.

And they were being, they were, we had an office, you know, at each sta we came to the stations, we had an office at each station and we would just, everybody would take turns and I really didn't think any, I thought, I didn't know what was gonna happen, but I didn't think people were gonna really talk. But they did.

But they did, and half of 'em had never seen a clinician before, so we kind of broke that stigma down to realize that they're not nuts and you're not gonna be sitting on some couch and not, you know, the clinician's not gonna be smoking a pipe. Um, and, uh, you know, nothing like that. And it, but it just, it worked.

So I had that, I had that follow through and, um, I was able to, like, if I knew somebody was struggling, if I knew, if I heard just through the grapevine that, you know, somebody was having anchor issues just abruptly out of nowhere, like we would, we would make a detour. We'd go to that station that we're going to already go to, but then we would add stops along the way and we would visit people that, you know, I was, I was hearing that were struggling.

And so that whole, uh, I know Dina Ali always talks about, it's a Desmond Tutu quote, and I'm gonna screw it up, but it's along the lines of, instead of. You know, being at the end of the river and catching people before they go over the waterfall, let's actually go upstream and find out while they're falling in. And so that early, and it's just, it's even just like cancer. That early detection, catching, catching your behavioral health early on where it could be just dealing with a one-on-one clinician, maybe they do EMDR, but being able to handle that in a early stage before it escalates and before you know, the person gets a, um, I.

You know, uh, get lost in a bottle or, um, and it escalates and escalates and escalates. Like that's key. And we were able to do that. We were actually being proactive instead of reactive. And uh, I really felt like we did a lot of good in a pretty short amount of time, just kind of doing things as is. And it really was, again, I had that survey, it laid everything out.

And I was just following that, you know, regarding the behavioral health stuff. Now you mentioned also sleep. So, uh, sleep. Sleep is so important to us. It is, it is our body's opportunity to heal and just recover. And when we, you know, for whatever reason sleep is the one thing we're willing to give up. Like, ah, well, you know, I, I'm tired, but I'll power through.

I mean, you and I did. You did that. You know, last time I was in DC and we went and had our little adventures

TJ: Oh my God. 

Jim: You just got off shift, there was no nap and you just went. And, um, but I mean, we all do that and it's just, just so bad for us. So what I was able to do is I actually did a, a training with, um, Allison Bragger, who's my friend, US Army, uh, neuro, um, scientist, sleep specialist.

She's actually gonna be coming to our conference next year to talk about sleep. But I was able to just ex do a, do a, like a online sleep training with her, just talking about how important it was again, that subject matter expert, which isn't me. I bring her in and we have fun. Like, and, and that's the other thing.

I, you know, I don't know how, how you guys do training, but uh, we're so busy and there's so few of us now that, you know, the hands-on training, that that has been gone for a long time. It's this vector solutions crap where most of the time, you know, they hit play and they walk away, and then they come back to finish the test and just guess until they get it right.

So in order to combat that, I, I had to do, I mean, I may, I try to make my trainings, my videos, like make them funny, make them entertaining. Um, and, and that way, like, you know, somebody would actually press play and they'd watch it and they'd come in and tell the guys, Hey, Ika did another, uh, training about sleep.

But it's, it's actually pretty good. And so I did that with Allison and then I also went to, we have two. Hospitals that do, you know, sleep studies and everything else. So I went to each hospital and I, and I basically had them explain what their take home test is for sleep, for sleep apnea now, and how much it is and just basically try to lead my guys and gals to get help and just make it as easy as possible, make it as informative as possible just so they can get there.

And, and it that worked too. There's so many more people that actually went and got tested and found out, you know, sure as shit, they have sleep apnea, but now they're on sleep AP machines and everything else is going well because of that. You know, even if they don't get, you know, a very long, you know, good, you know, a long night of sleep, even if it's shorter, that quality of sleep with a sleep apnea machine of CPAP is so much better and so they'll feel so much better because of that.

So that's my long-winded answer for you there.

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TJ: dude, I, I love the long-winded answers. It. Um, 'cause the, it opens up the door for so many other follow up questions and follow up. Uh, long-winded answers. I want to touch on the, um, the fact that you are bringing in SMEs, but also making it fun because every single person listening, whether they use, what is it?

Target solutions, vector solutions. We have our virtual academy. It's always that, almost that arms race of, hey, they came up with a new way that you can't fast forward through. So now we use Mouse Jiggers to make sure that we just can set it and forget it. And I think we are missing the point on all levels.

We, as the end users are missing the point that maybe this training is actually worthwhile. Maybe it's gonna come in handy at some point. The people putting the training together are missing the point of you're not meeting your people where they are. Like that is such a business tenet. That is something that you do anytime you want to reach people and you want something, right?

If I want to sell you my leather work, I'm going to meet you where you are. I'm gonna meet you on your phone screen. I'm gonna meet you at TikTok. I'm gonna meet you wherever you spend your time because I want you to buy from me when it comes to putting a training together. I want you to get the most outta this training.

So why don't I meet you where you are and instead of checking a stupid box for a vector solution or a target solutions or whatever, I admire the fact that you said, I am going to make this a firefighter thing. We are going to make it irreverent. We are going to make it funny because in between the jokes and the hilarity of it all, I.

There will be things that actually stick to mind, and I will, as a firefighter, I will remember those things more than some MD sitting there spouting facts on screen that I'm just gonna glaze my eyes and hope that a meteorite vaporizes me type thing.

Jim: I, I think the other big thing that made it easier for me to do this was, you know, my training was focused on my firefighters. It was for their benefit, it's their personal gains at stake is what I was preaching. Um, so it wasn't, it wasn't about the lovely, again, I've mentioned 'em already, the lovely citizens of Dayton, they're fine.

But, you know, taking care of that actual firefighting firefighter, uh, and their health and wellness, um, was, was what I was selling. So it wasn't that hard of a sell really when it came down to it. And I could tell you, my guys and gals for the first time, they actually appreciated that somebody was actually there looking out for them.

That was not a thing. And it's really still not a thing now that I'm not there. But like, I was there to, and my focus was simply them. It was, and it was sincere. And I think they, they saw that and were appreciative of it. 'cause it had never, you know, my 20 years, 21 years beforehand, nothing was like that.

It was all about the external customer and not the internal customer. And what places need to realize if you take care of the internal customer, they're gonna take care of the external customer even that much better. Because their mind is going to be in the, the right state of, you know, the mind, right mind frame.

That it should be, you know, they're in a good place, they're not worried about their home life or whatever else they're there. They can actually completely focus on the job at hand and not, you know, not have any of those external um, issues. People just don't

realize that. 

TJ: and you touch, you touch on the word sincerity and it's, that is key. We are good at, our bullshit meter is pretty dialed in in the fire service and within the first five seconds of seeing a new instructor or somebody from the academy show up, like we can tell, is this gonna be dumb or is this something that's actually gonna help me?

So approaching. The health and wellness side of things, approaching training firefighters, and we're going down the rabbit hole of, of fixing training. But, uh, approaching us with that sincerity of like, this is for you. I have nothing to gain. I'm not here to check a box. I literally want you to have a long, prosperous career and to be able to go home and be a good family member.

Firefighters can sense that. They can tell.

Jim: Yeah. And, and not just, not just make it through the career and be happy and healthy, but to actually be around and enjoy the retirement. Otherwise, what's, what's the point? What's the point of putting in 25, 30 years just so you die two years later? That doesn't make any sense to me.

TJ: My nightmare scenario, and we've all seen it, is we've seen the news stories of the firefighters who retire and within a week they drop dead. Like that to me, I don't think it's, hopefully, knock on wood, watch, I'm gonna get hit by an asteroid now, but I don't think that's gonna happen to me, but I never want to see it happen to my people.

And going back to that early detection and that early action, it, it's on us to educate our folks and to, to have those conversations of like, Hey, we can be good here, but we can also be good at home. And there's life after the fact. If we take care of ourselves here, then there's gonna be a good, long, healthy retirement.

You know, every everyone's goal is to stay alive longer than you worked for. That way they're, you know, your, your retirement, your pension, and everything's paying you more than you paid into it. Like you, you are at a net profit at that point. So, um, yeah, I, I like that. I like the, the fact that you were approaching with that sincerity, and we see that in the conference.

We see that in, in how you continue that crusade. Do you want to go, let, let's get to a crossroads here. Shall we talk cancer? Shall we talk brothers, helping brothers? Which do we want go dark and happy? Or do we wanna go happy and then dark and then try to come back?

Jim: I, I think we could, um, oh, thank you for, by the way, for giving me the keys. Um, let me, let me picked her out. But I, I think, I mean, we can go into the cancer and I think it actually would then parlay into the brothers Helping brothers. I think I could pull that off. I'm

TJ: Let's do it. I have bel I believe in you. I have faith in you.

Jim: glad somebody does, you know?

TJ: I mean, the people who show up to the conference do, or you're good bamboozling them.

Jim: yeah. You know, um, the, you know, the occupational cancer that, that came, I. The first time I ever heard, I think anything of it was 2006. Um, at that point in time, I was the union's special events coordinator, which is a fancy way of saying party planner. That's, that's really what I was,

I, and that's how I took it too, you know, being at that point in time, 25 years old, 26 years old, like I was, I was in my prime ready, having fun, going out, doing things.

And uh, you know, my role was the, the main thing was golf tournament, um, retirees dinner, and then whatever else I wanted to do. And I did a lot of stuff, um, you know, concerts, you know, even this dates myself, but like, we had, you know, concert slash guitar hero tournaments, you know, uh, just. I really dates myself, but it was a lot of fun.

And one of those actual events was to help raise funds for, uh, my friend Sean that I worked with for his son Gavin, uh, who at five years old was diagnosed with Ewing Sarcoma. So a really rare, crazy cancer. And by the way, Gavin is, is doing great now. Um, I mean, he's college age. He's, it's, he's in a good place.

It's been awesome to see. But, uh, we, we made too much money, uh, it would, I mean, a good problem to have. And, and that's when we ended up giving, uh, some of the funding to the Firefighter Cancer Support Network, which just started, uh, 2005, 2006. So they, they just started and, uh, the, the actual founder ended up coming out and accepting to check live in person in Dayton.

And. And, uh, I met him there and it was great. And, and I just so happened again, young party guy going on adventures. At that time I was, uh, trying to see all 30 major league ballparks, you know, going back to sports, right? Ballparks, that means baseball. So

TJ: Oh, thank you. Thank you for explaining that 

Jim: he was, he was, yeah, you were gonna think I was talking about lacrosse or some something.

But, so I went out to the west coast to do my trip. Um, and that's where, uh, the founder was from, was LA County. And he picked me up the airport and I hung out with him and next thing I know, he suckered me into starting the Ohio chapter of the Firefighter King Support Network. And so I did that for a couple years and I was, I think at that time it was California.

New York and then me. So I remember, I remember asking him like, what do I do? And he just said, I don't know, just make it up. Like, do what you want to do. And, and so what, whatever I did, I apparently, I think it worked because few years later I was named Vice President of Regions, which meant I did all the training, um, for all the new states and basically took care of them.

That was my job, was to help out the state coordinators. And again, and this is, I'm in my mid twenties at this point, um, upper, maybe upper twenties, I don't know. But, uh, when that, that founder, I ended up stepping down and I got voted to take his place. So I'm, I don't know, at that point, early thirties. And I'm in charge of a, a national network, national, you know, nonprofit.

And, uh, looking, looking back hindsight, like I wasn't ready for that. Uh, that was way too much. Um, but I just, I kind of faked it until I made it, I guess. I mean, it was the same, like, you know, I don't think you understand the gravity of things when you're, you're doing it sometimes, especially when you're young.

Like I, I think even back before I started dating, I worked a full part-time, jobs as fire, and, uh, I'd be in the officer's seat. I was like 19, 20 years old in the officer's seat and didn't know any better and just did my best. But like, looking back, I'm like, I had no business doing that. I wasn't ready for that.

There's no way. So it was really, the, was the same thing with the, the network And uh, um, I did that for a while a little bit and, but I realized again it was just too much for me. So I stepped down to just being an Ohio guy and, uh. But, uh, again, that, that immaturity was, I think, still there. And so I, I, uh, I made too much out of stuff that probably didn't need to be too much.

And when the new guy came in, he, he felt like I was distraction. And again, in hindsight, I probably was, I was pretty negative, um, at that time. And I got, I got kicked out of a volunteer organization that happened. That's hilarious. But it,

TJ: Bro, me.

Jim: it happened. And, uh, but I will, you know, I will say that I'm back. Uh, we're back in, um, again, time I think heals all wounds and, um, unfortunately, I, I have my own cancer scare.

Um, where I got, uh, April 22nd, 2021 is when I got diagnosed with thyroid cancer and I reached back out to the FCSN. And, uh, I think, I actually believe they had a little conversation like, well, what do we do with this guy? You know? And, and they ultimately ended up like, no, he's one of us. He's asked for help, let's help him out.

And it sucks that it took me actually getting sick to kind of build back that relationship, but, but I'm glad it did. And now it's like full circle. Now I'm, I'm a mentor, so if somebody gets diagnosed with thyroid cancer, a lot of times they'll ask me to talk to them. So, um, it kind of all worked out in the end.

But, uh, yeah, that cancer journey was a little bit crazy, uh, for sure. Um, and that kind of, I guess, leads into the brothers helping brothers. Um, Nick knew Nick was local here. He knew that I did the cancer stuff, and he actually asked me to sit down and have lunch with him. And I, and I did that. And he was talking about doing this first annual conference and.

He wanted to book me to talk. And the more and more we talked, the more like somehow again, uh, it must be easy to, for people to negotiate to. 'cause next thing I know, I'm booking half the conference, I'm taking care of all the cancer guys. You know that, that content because, and because he's Nick again, Nick is, um, heart of gold and I don't think he realized how like, political, the firefighter cancer world was like you would, you wouldn't think that it was, but it absolutely is.

This person doesn't get along with this person and you can't have that person because of that person, this person, that person. And. It's ugly. And so like I basically said, I'll help you navigate that. And I, so I ended up booking basically the cancer part. He booked the behavioral health part. His, his attitude back then was, and we're talking seven years ago now, cancer was a really hot topic.

Not a lot of people were talking about behavioral health, but he felt like they should be. So his attitude was, let's bring him in with the firefighter cancer stuff and shove behavioral health down their throat. That was, that was his attitude. And it pretty much worked. And you know, at this point we've kind of seen where the conferences still, we still talk about cancer, but it's, it's overall wellness, but probably the bulk of it is now really behavioral health.

Um, and that's, and that's just kind of changed with the times, you know, but we want to still. Be able to have a really rounded about conference that touches on a little bit of everything. And we also wanna make it to where, you know, we don't hit the same stuff every single year that we kind of rotate.

And you know, so if you're continuing to go to our conference, you're continuing to build expertise in all different areas from all different people instead of just kind of hearing the same stuff over and over again. That's another long-winded answer for you. Now, I must take a drink of water.

TJ: Please drink. I will do the same. And I, I appreciate those quote unquote long-winded answers. 

Jim: I've done it before I've started, like I've asked questions before on my shows and somebody would go on for 20, 25 minutes and it's, I mean, it's okay. I mean, it's easier for the podcaster.

TJ: Okay. But Oh, right. But would you prefer that or just like a quick yes no answer, because that to me, that's when my alarm bells start going off. I'm like, God, I gotta scramble, I gotta pivot

Jim: Yes. No, no.

I want, I 

want 

TJ: no answers.

Jim: Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah, for sure.

TJ: So you, again, you elaborated so much that you kind of put my a, DD mind into, um, into a spin.

So let's touch back on, let's go back a little bit. Rewind to, to cancer. Talk to me about Firefighter Cancer Consultants. I. You've been all over the place. Is it safe to say sharing your story,

Jim: Um,

TJ: educating all of the above, enacting change, what is it that you're, you know, bebopping around throughout the world 

Jim: you know, um. So when I got kicked out of FCSN, um, I, I really thought I, I had, I mean, there's options out there. There's other, there's another cancer group that I, that I probably could have joined. Um, but I just, when it all came down to it, it was, um, I kind of wanted to be my own boss. 'cause at least that way, um, nobody's going to fire me or kick me out. So, so it was almost in, in, in regard to that. But at the same time, I like, so I should say too, so before I did that, and, and it's weird to when you, when you really think back and you realize that things that may have at the time seemed like it sucked, actually helped out later on and. I'll give you the example is I, uh, I, I tore my ACL, which, and I've done that three times.

Um, but I tore my ACL I'm on light duty at work and I ask, you know, if I asked the district chief at that time, if I could just focus on doing cancer prevention stuff instead of the usually mundane, you know, light didi rolls of paperwork and errands and all that kind of stuff. Like, let me actually do something I care about.

And, and so just by doing that and really, you know, was, was the inception and I didn't realize it at the time of what I was gonna be doing next, and actually being able to do the same thing for other departments. So I think the other thing is when I, when I did stuff with the Firefighter Cancer Sport Network, it was, I mean, it was great, but it was, it was so.

Um, just the magnitude of, of what we were talking about it, it got out there, but it was, it was all very generic. It was like, these are the roles that you, you know, the, like we did the F-C-S-M-Y paper in 2013 and it had like, the 11 steps prevent cancer, and it was, those were great, but they were all very generic.

So it, it may not, you know, what's in Howard would not be the same for Dayton and everything else. So the idea was with the Firefighter Cancer consultants was to actually get in, get in grossed in that individual department, figure out what they do on a fire scene and also back at the firehouse regarding all these cancer items, and really give them this report and this presentation that that's just shares their current practices compared to the best practices for reducing firefighter cancer.

So. You know, all that stuff is based off of NFPA standards and different science that's out there. You know, so they know that I'm not just making stuff up and going, Hey, do this. Um, and, and it really just gives that department the opportunity to know where they stand and what they need to work on. You know, what's the low hanging fruit?

What are the items that they can implement right away that are low cost or just procedural or, and then they also have the, you know, the big ticket items, the, the capital items, um, sometimes that they have to get, whether it's an exhaust system or, or even just a logistically difficult items of something that like we all should be doing, but we suck at it.

And that's like, you know, wearing our SCBAs for overhaul. That's our biggest exposure we get. But yet most of us. A lot of times aren't wearing our mask. Yeah. Oh, it's all clear. Well, no it's not. So, um, actually, you know, just talking about that kind of stuff. So, um, initially when I would go out and teach, like I, I didn't have really the personal story that was involved.

Um, so a lot of times I played, I'm not sure if you've ever seen it before, but it's a tremendous video. It's, it's by the Boston guys and it's where the, we have the wall of all the, the firefighters that has succumb to cancer and they have their families talking. And it's just a super powerful video. Um, and it really brings it home.

It personalizes it, it talks about the big picture. And I know I already mentioned before that what's the point of doing this if we're just gonna. You know, retire and die because that's what happens. Cancer has a latency period of 10, 15, 20, 25 years before it shows up, you know, from our exposures. Um, and unlike I always, I also like to use the, you know, if we're at that fire and we throw up a, a ladder and we fall off that ladder and we break our ankle, it is very obvious when, how and where we broke our ankle.

But it's not that way of cancer. Like, I don't know how I got my cancer. I have no idea. I can guess, but I'm not really sure. So it's because of that we have to do everything we possibly can and just hope that we don't get cancer. But if we do, we hope that we catch in an earlier stage. So, um, and that's kind of what I do with, you know, all the departments now.

But instead of playing that Boston video, now that I have my own story, I, I share my own story. And, uh, so that kind of does the, the personalized portion of it. I'd rather not be part of this club and have to do that, but the fact that I am, and I'm doing okay, like I, I do feel like I caught my cancer. I caught it early.

I'm in a good place and that allows me to, to continue to share that message. And essentially it's, it's kind of like what I've realized my whole career to be is don't be like me. You know? That's kind of the gist of it, the summary. Uh, don't be like me. Learn from my mistakes. Don't, don't do these mistakes yourself.

Learn from my mistakes and be better because of that.

TJ: And that that goes into, I think, the goal that we have of leaving this place better than we found it. The stories are more poignant when they're personal. When I can grab that young firefighter and say, listen, you're about to make this mistake. This is how I know because I've made that mistake. I'm imploring you.

Don't do it. These are the consequences. This is what you're gonna be facing. Take this lesson from me. I paid for it in blood. And you don't have to pay anything if you just listen to me. And it's um, it's funny you mentioned the being not wanting to be part of the club. I've referred to that I. I don't wanna make this about me, but like, when it comes to, to line of duty deaths, I, I've told people that once that happens, you are part of a horrible, horrible club.

But that sort of helps amplify your voice. So it's, it's interesting, you, you and I think very similarly, and sometimes creepily use the same 

Jim: I mean, we're both pretty good looking, so we got that going for us too.