035. 10% Of The People You Work With Are Assholes - Dave Angelo [Part 1]

In Part 1 of this special series, we reunite with the incomparable Dave Angelo for a  chat that delves into the intricacies of rookie expectations, mentorship, and the challenges faced by chief officers.

🔥 Join your host, TJ, as he catches up with Dave and discovers the latest chapters in his life's story. Together, they embark on an insightful exploration of what it means to be a rookie firefighter in today's dynamic landscape.

🌟 Discover the realities faced by new recruits as Dave shares his wisdom gleaned from years of experience. From navigating the demands of training to assimilating into the firefighting brotherhood, this episode offers invaluable insights for rookies and seasoned firefighters alike.

💡 As the conversation unfolds, TJ and Dave delve into the importance of mentorship in the fire service. Explore the transformative power of guidance and support as they discuss how mentors can shape the careers and futures of their proteges.

🤝 Chief officers play a pivotal role in leading their departments, yet often face a disconnect from the challenges experienced by frontline firefighters. Tune in as TJ and Dave shed light on this phenomenon and explore strategies for bridging the gap between leadership and frontline personnel.

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Transcript

TJ: Welcome everybody to today's episode of the keep the promise podcast. I'm your host TJ and today I'm joined once again by a good friend and mentor who was featured in episodes 19 and 20 where we talked about all things Joining the fire department.

We talked about working in a mine and how to deal with those little shit bag rookies that we

Dave: all have to deal

TJ: And today we are going to dig into some of the questions that you have asked on the Instagram broadcast channel, as well as some of the notes that we took after our first couple of episodes and some of the things that we've been going through in the last few months.

So back again with us one more time. Our good friend Dave Angelo. Dave, how are you

Dave: I'm good, man. Thanks for having me.

TJ: thanks for doing this again. We upgraded the hardware. We don't have to worry about those goofy, articulating arms from a few months back. And, um, we're sitting here drinking coffee, having a great time. What have you been up to? It's been a few months.

Dave: Um, you know, just uh, I honestly, not a whole lot. It's, um, you know, like did a little bit of traveling. I think I, you know, went down to Florida, visited a couple of people at the beginning of December.

TJ: Christmas

Dave: Um, got home, did the Christmas thing. And now I am. planning my next trip, which will be pretty sweet.

Um, like I've got three nights in Yosemite planned and then three nights in Tahoe after that. And then I'm just kind of gonna. wing it and go where the hell I want to go. So yeah, yeah, I, I figure on being going about a month, month and a half or something like that.

TJ: It's that retired life.

Dave: Yeah, it's a weird thing. I mean, like we have, we have a great retirement, really good retirement, but you still take a pay cut when you, when you retire. That's, you know, like you just do like they're making overtime hand over fist now. And like, There are times when I go, Eh, maybe I got out a little bit too early.

But you keep chasing that carrot. And I knew that wasn't a thing. But, um, One of the things, One of the things you find Being retired is that you're bored you, you know, like, and you try to look for things to fill your time and to combat boredom. What do you do? You spend money. So it's always that, like, I always think about, maybe I should get a part time job.

Maybe I should look for some kind of Yeah, some type of work and I do some part time work here and there, but I also like having the flexibility to go, I'm gonna, I don't know many employers that are cool with it. Yeah, I'm going away for a month and a half starting in May. Um, see ya. I'll be back,

TJ: see ya. I'll be back. Probably.

Dave: Yeah, yeah, I'm

TJ: Your kitchen antics? Bro,

Dave: friend of mine who Bakes cookies and stuff like that. And, uh, No, um, yeah, so it's, yeah, I, I, I know that, but anyway, um, And

TJ: that you missed out on getting out when you did was when recreational marijuana came into play in Maryland. We did have a couple calls about it, and to this day they are still the most hilarious runs that I've had. We had a couple, they were in there like

Dave: late 60s? Yeah.

TJ: Who went out and bought a bunch of gummies.

Spent like 150 in their gummies.

Dave: Okay. Oh, I know where this is going. Went

TJ: um, went to a brewery. Had dinner, had some beers. Took the gummies, and they called. Because their chests felt like they were going to implode.

Dave: Right.

TJ: know, the guy's, you know, his mouth is dry. He keeps like, smacking his lips. And, uh, we're

Dave: like one of the things about the edibles today is, is they're, they're pretty strong. And the other thing is edibles. don't, they're not automatic. So you, you take a bite of the cookie or you, you take a gummy and you're like,

TJ: know, you're waiting.

Dave: you're

TJ: That ain't shit. Famous last

Dave: that ain't shit.

TJ: another bite

Dave: So you take another bite of the cookie. Oh, that's nothing. You know, I don't feel anything. And then you eat the whole cookie. And then an hour and a half later, you're like, I'm dying.

TJ: Dude. Ah! Ah! They said they ate. I think it was five a pop. We did the math and I think each one of them ended up like I don't know where they got these extra strength things But I'm like you guys all took over a gram worth Like you like let's get you a lift

Dave: Yeah,

TJ: Go eat all the snacks you want and then hang on for dear life

Dave: that's exactly it. Just, there's nothing you can do. Just, just hold on to the earth. Yeah. And, and, and, it's like, get through this ride. Cause it's gonna.

TJ: Yeah, you

Dave: won't do, you won't make that mistake again.

TJ: that mistake again. Right. Well, yeah, and then the other thing I do part

Dave: Well, you know, and then the other thing I do part time is, um, I'll travel every once in a while. I do site safety inspections for construction sites. And, um,

TJ: And um,

Dave: Yeah, I mean, but that's again, both of those are really, really sporadic and really have a flexible schedule.

So other than that, you know, like I said, it's just, you know, day to day working out, you know, keeping the house straight, going to visit my kids every once in a while. Um, actually. I had a really nice dinner with Josh's shift, um, last Wednesday, um, sat down with them. They invited me to dinner. Yeah. So that was kind of cool to sit around the firehouse kitchen table.

Like one of the, one of the things I absolutely 1000 percent miss is that banter around the fire house kitchen table. Like, you know, there is no place on the planet like it. And um,

TJ: yeah,

Dave: It's just, that's a whole lot of awesome right there. So it was, it was very, very kind of them. They were very welcoming and, uh, you know, yeah, definitely a good bunch of

TJ: You're always welcome at our firehouse

Dave: appreciate that.

TJ: 8 and 9 are the same. You know this, they're the same building but inverted.

Dave: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

TJ: I, to this day, every time I go to 8, I get all sorts of turnaround because I have 9 like completely like embedded in, in my mind and how to navigate the

Dave: Well, dude, like, that brought back a whole lot of memories for me because, like, I took my physical agility test for Howard County in the bunk room of Station 8. Like, that's where they held the physical agility test. When I got hired. I don't know. Yeah, but you're like, like literally all we had to do was, um, uh, shoot, um, chair dips sit ups. Okay. I think we had to do like 40 in two minutes of each. And then we had to run the mile and a half in under 1145. That's it.

So they, they made us do those things in the bunk room and then they took us down to the end of route 29 and we ran for a mile and a half and that was it. That was, that was the physical agility test back then.

TJ: Touchback. Hashtag bring that back.

Dave: Yeah.

TJ: We'd still have people failing, let's be

Dave: Oh, absolutely. Yeah. 1000%.

TJ: fail out of this

Dave: Well. I, I, I believe in CPAT. Like, I think like one of the failings of my fire department was that we didn't adopt CPAT. But anyway, I digress.

TJ: it. Because I always tell you, once you get off that Stairmaster Just walk quickly, don't

Dave: don't run. Now

TJ: too cool for school. I ran, and I fell, and then I got up, and then I ran again, and as I was dragging the hose, and I fell the second time, the nozzle, like, dug in too much, like, knocked the wind out of me.

I'm like, I'm good, I'm good. They're like, no, you're done. So, shout out to, to Prince George's County for making me sign a refusal. The

Dave: most, the most like

TJ: humiliating experience of, eh. One of the most humiliating experiences of my life. Having to get wheeled out on a stretcher just to sign a refusal saying, like, I knocked the wind out of myself.

I'll be back next week.

Dave: Good times.

TJ: Alright, so, for those who may not have listened to the other episodes, tell us, like, a quick synopsis about you, about your fire service career, where you started, where you ended up, and

Dave: Oh, okay.

Well, I, I grew up in Southwest Pennsylvania. Um, uh, my uncle read an ad in the Pittsburgh Press for Howard County Fire Department. Um. We went through the process for that. I got hired in Howard County in September of 85. Worked in Howard County for three years and then took the test for Baltimore County.

Um, yeah, I started in Baltimore County in September of 88. Um, I think I made lieutenant in 99, um, captain in 2013

TJ: 2013

Dave: and retired in 2021. And, um, yeah, so it's been a little, uh, almost two and a half years.

TJ: And

Dave: It's, it was, it was, it was so much fun. Like it was a ridiculous amount of fun. You know, like say like not everything was all sunshine and rainbows, but if I look at it, you know, in the overall picture, it was, it was awesome.

I loved it.

TJ: was awesome. I loved it. Yeah, part time gig

Dave: part time gig at, um, I think I worked eight or nine years in Bel Air Volunteer Fire Company as one of their, um, EMS providers. Um, you know, EMT pukes, I think they called us back then. Payfucks. Oh, yeah, it was, yeah, they, they did not, like, they were not kind to the EMS side.

Let's just,

TJ: let's quantify that statement. Well, or qualify it by saying that most of us were using those words in jest because

Dave: most of them. Yeah, most, most of you, there were a couple.

TJ: that thought you guys were just

Dave: Which was hysterical because we were making them money hand over fist.

TJ: And not to mention the fact that the majority of you guys had Way more time than any of us did, and way more experience, and way more wherewithal about yourselves because you kept it all secret.

Like,

Dave: Yeah, we didn't,

TJ: Brian Smith,

Dave: Oh my god, yeah.

TJ: of these guys that once we found out who you guys were, we're like, Oh fuck, we can't call them paid fucks anymore, like, these dudes are the real deal.

Dave: think we were, like, we were all lieutenants at the time. Um, yeah, yeah, I think me, Jay, and Brian were all lieutenants at the time. And No, I will say that I lost the competition for the best looking paid guy in,

TJ: Bel

Dave: like the hottest paid guy at, uh, Bel Air fire company, uh, Bel Air.

TJ: Smith.

Dave: As a paid guy at Bel Air, um, that title, you know, rightly so goes to Brian Smith because that's a good looking man right there.

TJ: like, yeah, the

Dave: But I, I do not hesitate to tease him about that every chance I get. Apparently, like, some of the women had a poll, yeah, the female providers had a poll and, you know, they named him the hottest paid guy there and I'm like, I never let him forget that. Oh, well, you know, I was, you know, my feeling was hurt.

Like the one feeling I still have me, but it was only bruised a little bit. I think I'm okay now.

TJ: no, those were good times

Dave: Yes. Yeah.

TJ: We got to rub elbows with some, with some real, some real good folks. Some,

Dave: And, and, and you're right. Most of the, like most of the people that I worked with there, you know, a lot of the younger volunteers, they were, you know, like, like the really cool people that I'm still friends with today. So it's, uh, it, it, it was a good experience as well.

TJ: I, I was.

Dave: time on

TJ: Wasting time on Facebook the other day and I came across one of the Baltimore City's posts about people who recently got promoted and saw that Scott Garrett, who

Dave: You know, like, I'm like, holy shit. Good for him. Like, yeah. Good for him. Oh, yeah. Good dude. God, I loved working with that guy. He was so much fun to work with.

TJ: So for as much shit as I give my volunteer time, it was still, it was worth it for the people. It's always, that's one thing that I've realized as I spend way more time in the fire service, is that At the end of the day, I don't really give a shit about much except the people, because these are, like, these are the people that make everything so worthwhile, like, it all boils down to that human capital, like, those folks, just, they just make it, like, without it, it would just, it would suck.

Dave: Good human beings. They, they, they truly are. Like, I mean, I still, I, I, I still think that 10% of the entire human population are assholes. And it, it covers everything. It covers every gender, every race, creed, color, like, no matter what. Um, so, 10 percent of the people you work with are probably assholes.

TJ: I think I am that 10 percent if you ask

Dave: that 10%, if you ask me. Eh, yeah. Everybody's idea of an asshole is different too, so. But You know, like I, I, like one of the things that really hit home for me was I was talking to, like I did a go ruck event up in New York city and um, I was talking to one of the cadre waiting for the subway, like waiting for the train to go home and we, he and I are bullshitting and for some reason I told him about my theory of my 10 percent theory and this guy was in Delta.

He was in the battle of Mogadishu and he's like, Oh yeah, even a Delta. Like, wait, what? Delta? I'm like, the cream of the cream of the cream of the crop? He's like, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, they're, they're dudes that nobody wants to work with in Delta. I'm like, holy shit. Like, that was, that was kind of validating for me to go, okay, well, you know, right?

The theory, uh, holds up. It's kind of cool.

TJ: Oh, well, yeah, right, the theory uh, holds up.

Dave: Bullshit issues that we do. Absolutely.

TJ: Well, so today we are gathered here, dearly beloved, because I got a message from Stephen Sims on the Instagram page and as soon as I read it I said I need to get a hold of Dave. And discuss this further with him. And this has now morphed into, we'll treat it almost like a rapid fire. We don't really have the usual structure that I strive for when it comes to, to these, um, these episodes.

We're just gonna go through questions that people have asked. And basically, we are using you as that source of knowledge and wisdom and experience. And I know you're gonna disagree with

Dave: with.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

TJ: answer the questions that the community has

Dave: your judgment.

TJ: Well, I mean, we're all, we're all messed up in the fire service and our judgment as we've talked about, we, we, we sometimes lack in judgment given our, the, the people that we work with, the people that we interact with and everything else in between we, um,

Dave: yeah, yeah.

TJ: so, um, Stephen asked, he said, my conversation would be about how we aren't just training rookies, but teaching adult one on one how to stop blaming them and actually teach them.

Yeah. Teach them how to treat people, right? How are training methodology should evolve after every rookie. I would love to hear conversations that go beyond the aggressive interior attack. You spend time at the fire Academy. You spend time training rookies. And when we talk about rookies, it's so easy to say new person in the fire service, and we forget to take that granular approach of your rookie might be.

An 18 year old woman who has never held a job before or it might be that 42 year old dude who has worked finance or in the mines or anything in between. So there's not a one size fits all approach. How do we teach these rookies how to

Dave: become firefighters?

TJ: But also what Steven said, like adulting one on one. We find ourselves having to do that a lot.

Having to, Hey, this is how we deal with issues. We talk about them or we fight about them, but then we deal like we, we crush them. We don't, we don't go to HR. We don't do any of these things. We squash them here. Like, let's talk about that. Let's talk about that adulting

Dave: and that's a tough one because like they're. Um, there are certainly going to be like every era has their shit bags, you know, and you know, like I had this conversation a thousand times with the older members of the fire department, like my peers, um, especially after I started, you know, helping out at the Academy and stuff like that.

And you're like, Oh, these kids today, they suck. They can't even start a saw. And I think, um, Um, Brunacini actually address that. He's like, so, so they can't start a saw fucking teach them,

TJ: It's that simple.

Dave: like show them how to, how to run the saw. I'm, I am sure they'll figure it. You know, I'm, I'm sure they'll learn like, don't, don't rag them because they don't know how to work a saw already.

They may not work, know how to work a saw already, but I guarantee that they're better at that goddamn cell phone than you are. Or they're better at that computer than you are, you know, so, yeah, like you need to, you need to adjust your expectations of you. You can't look at, you can't base your expectations on people you knew 20, 30 years ago.

You have to base your expectations on, you know, like what are the expectations of the job? What do they need to know? Then teach them. Like, it's just that simple. Like, and, uh, I'll, I'll, I'll, I actually have something that I'll segue into here. Um, when I went through Howard County's Academy, there were only eight of us in the recruit class.

We had a very,

TJ: uh,

Dave: structured, instructor who you didn't do shit until he told you to, like he would get mad if you showed initiative. Like, you know, because you know, the audacity of you to think that you know more than I do, blah, blah, blah, that kind of stuff. So the entire academy class like you learned really quickly that you didn't do shit until he told you to do something.

So if you stepped off a fire engine you wait until he told you to do whatever it is that he wanted done Then you undid it. So I go to my first fire. I'm at station 7

TJ: Um,

Dave: It was a ride out Heath And I get off the I get off. I think I Think I was on the engine. I Get off the engine and I'm waiting to get, uh, for somebody to tell me what to do.

Well, the Lieutenant at the time like ripped me a new ass and this, he was a high, like pretty, like highly regarded Lieutenant in your fire department at the time. Well, like I was a piece of shit after that. Like I was a dumb ass rookie that didn't know what the fuck I was doing. Like, dude, I was just waiting for you to tell me what to do. But there was that, there, there was that disconnect. So, you know, like there, again, he had the expectation that I went through the fire academy and I should know what the fuck I'm doing from day one. And I did, but nobody told me what to do. I was, I was, you know, like I was. The expectations that

TJ: The expectations that the Academy set for you were not Jiving with the

Dave: were not jiving with the expectations out of the fire department.

TJ: So you're not talking personally, you're talking about what he went on to say to other people.

Dave: Okay.

TJ: That's a toxic aspect of our profession that would be one of the first things to go if I could snap my finger and just get rid of it. Because we are so good at eating our young. And

Dave: my theory

TJ: is that it takes so much more work to mentor somebody and to pick them up and say, this is how you fucked up.

This is how you will not do it again. Right? It takes so much more work than turning around and going to the whole shift. Hey, this guy's a piece of shit, right? And then you call your buddies at the other firehouse, Hey, good luck. 'cause our

Dave: Yeah, exactly. That

TJ: is one of the most toxic aspects

Dave: It is now like moving forward as far as rookies go and stuff like that as a company officer, you know, like I think it's really important to lay down the expectations, not only From Yeah, to the new rookies that come on board, you know, like, but to your shift as far as how the rookies should be treated.

And a lot of times that doesn't happen. Like a lot of times the, you know, there's a hands off approach, um, from the officers to, yeah, you know, like throwing the wolves. You know, they'll, they'll figure it out. You know, whatever. Um, you know, because that's what they did with me and I turned out fine, you know,

TJ: did with me, and I turned out fine. So, yeah,

Dave: so you do, you know, like as an officer, you need to, like, you need to sit the rookie down and go, this is what I expect from you. This is, you know, this is the minimum that I expect from you. These are the things that I need you to do. Um, the kind of, yeah. Stuff that you need to do to make people in this job trust you because there has to be a level of trust from both sides and for them to, you know, for, for you to gain their trust, you have to do these things.

Now after that happens, you'll start to trust them as well, but there's got to be some back and forth there. Um, and then there needs to be some consistency. Like you can't, you can't say this is my expectation of you, All right. Well, like John's been on the job for like 25 years and he's kind of coasting, so I'm going to let him slide for the like, like you can't do that.

There has to be consistency across the board as far as how you treat people and how you expect them to treat everybody on the shift. So, you know, it's, it's, Give me a goddamn fire all day, every day. They're the easiest parts of this job. It's the people that make it like as, as far as an officer goes and it's the people and the people skills that make it very, very difficult to be an officer because everybody's different.

Everybody comes into the job with different expectations and Yeah, that, that's, that's, that's not an easy thing to do. And some people just aren't going to be okay with it. Some people, you know, like they, they, they don't fit, you know? And

TJ: you know,

Dave: I, yeah, I don't know what the answer is to that. You know, like I, I truly don't like, uh, it's, it's kind of like if you're consistent and you're clear with your expectations and you're fair, as fair as you can be.

Careful,

TJ: that's a dirty word in the fire service.

Dave: of the

TJ: fair. Got to be fair. Oh, the amount of stuff I've heard from people just bemoaning the word fair, which to me ties into our incredible ability to take the most innocuous thing make it a whole pile of bullshit. I've,

Dave: And you're always going to have people like that. Dude, I remember when I first got in, I'm like when I first got on the job and it was a really long time ago, like 80 88 I go to 89 I go to Dundalk. There was a person there who like, yeah, they were like, Oh, you have to watch what they say. You say around this person because they keep notes.

And they like, yeah, like, and you know, so, so even back then it was happening, it's not like it wasn't happening back then, you know, and, and, you know, like, and, and this just, you know, this kind of thing just started like recently that shit was going on even way back when now on the other side of that, there's a lot of inappropriate shit going on back then too. I mean, you know, like, let's be honest, they're like, there were VHF. You know, it's like VHS porn videos being shown around the kitchen table. They, they could smoke in the kitchen. Um,

TJ: Yeah,

Dave: yeah, like you couldn't like, you couldn't go into a bathroom in any firehouse and not like have a stack of penthouse and playboy magazines sitting right next to the shitter.

Like that's, that's just the way it was and we thought, Oh,

TJ: there's

Dave: wrong here, but you know, and you know, over time we've, you know, like we came to realize that, okay, well maybe that's, you know, like, that's not cool. Um, and we shouldn't do that. Yeah. But yeah, it, it took a long time to change that culture.

And you know, there were people who would say outrageous shit. I like, I remember one dude, like. We, we, we had a battalion meeting as far as the contract was going on.

TJ: And

Dave: And so like five or six different firehouses come to this one firehouse. There's a dude that put. A Ruger mini 14 with a scope and a tripod on a, on a, one of the kitchen tables pointed at the front of the room for the union president to come into and speak, you know, like that's where he was going to talk and, and there's a rule in the rule and reg says no firearms in the firehouse.

And there were battalion chiefs at this, at this meeting, nobody did a goddamn thing

TJ: and I'm like,

Dave: like, and I'm like,

TJ: think

Dave: Like, uh, I don't think this is okay. I think I'm going to stand in the back of the room. Yeah. Like Jesus Christ. I mean, you know, that's again, you know, so the pendulum swung the other way and eventually like, you know, that, you know, that kind of behavior stopped, but there were dudes that thought that was fine.

There was nothing wrong with that. So. Again, you know, like, yeah, when, when people talk about the shitbags that are coming out of the academy now, these kids, they don't know this, they don't know that they're good kids. They want to learn. They're, they're smart. They're motivated. You know, they, they want to do a good job.

90 percent of them, 10 percent of them. Yeah. You know, like 10 percent are going to be shitbags. 10 percent of my class was shitbags. I guarantee that like when, like again,

TJ: that

Dave: guys that were getting ready to retire when I came out, I guarantee 10 percent of their class was shitbags, but it's human nature to forget shitty people and shitty things.

That's, that's what allows women to have more than one baby. Yeah, it's, it's, you

TJ: gonna get me canceled, dude.

Dave: it's, it's, it, no, like it's, it's, that's like, it's, it's a, it's a survival thing. Human survival helps you forget shitty things. And, and just remember the good stuff and that's a, you know, that's a lot of where this comes from.

Like, it's a lot of where this, like, these kids today suck comes from. Like, there were, there were shitty people, like, probably a hundred years ago.

TJ: just the

Dave: It's just the way it works. Yeah. Yeah. So. You know, like yeah,

TJ: Do you, do

Dave: that I ran over I

TJ: the department in good hands?

Dave: Did yes, yeah, I I know that I left it in good hands. Um, yeah, I Yeah, I'm saddened, you know by you know, like Some of the feedback I've been getting lately, like a lot of like morale is, you know, taking a bit of a shit, um, and that's the culmination of years and years of fiscal neglect, um, in our, in specifically in our fire department, you know, like we hadn't, we went decades without asking for enough money and, and now we're paying the price for that.

Um, so I think, you know, hopefully the pendulum will swing the other way. Um, but. As far as people go, hell yeah, yeah, they're damn good people and, and they're, they're gonna, they're gonna keep crushing it. They're going to keep doing a good job. Um, you know, it's, it's one of, uh, part of the problem with that fiscal thing is no matter how underfunded or, you know, understaffed or whatever we are, we're still going to go out there and we're going to do the best we can with what we got.

And, You know, unfortunately, the politicians know that they know we're not going to let the public down, you know, so, you know, they, they, they kind of have that little card in their pocket and they use it frequently.

TJ: use it frequently. I posted something recently about our year end stats. And again, engine nine was the busiest, busy, busy chasing medicals as, as we all do these days. And Smith boy, he, um, he sent me something. He's like the worst thing that has ever happened to us is that some politician made us believe that it is a point of pride to be running.

Five, six thousand calls a year. And that is so great because now we just keep wanting to do that. And they don't have to build us more firehouses and hire

Dave: Right. Absolutely.

TJ: I had

Dave: He's right. I'd

TJ: almost full blown meltdown. How about something stupid we were discussing at the kitchen table, but I pointed, I was like, you know, the dumb shit we're focusing on should stop and we should be focusing on those numbers and realizing that at least for us, who are running those 3, 800 plus calls a year, we're killing ourselves even faster.

We, we all die fast when we go into the fire department, like our, our life expectancy gets shortened. And to me, it's no,

Dave: it's

TJ: it's no longer that point of pride to be like, Oh, 3, 800 runs, because now I'm. Thinking about the four calls after midnight and the fucked up first day off

Dave: Yeah.

TJ: the backache and everything in between.

So yeah, that politician and this stirred up a huge hornet's nest of controversy, saying that it's not really point of pride to be. That ridiculously busy you are taking that human fact you are taking those people

Dave: people,

TJ: who are that They add the flex if you look at the fire service as a system You have your inputs and your outputs your your calls come in and then the fire department responds and everything has to go into play The finances the equipment all that when one of those pieces of the system starts failing Or starts lagging, what makes up for it?

Us, the humans. We are flexible, we can change things, we can improvise.

Dave: Yes.

TJ: And the fact that we always keep doing it does not go unnoticed by the higher ups. And they're like, no, no, no, they'll, they'll deal.

Dave: They'll figure it out.

TJ: put another

Dave: Oh yeah.

In that house? Yeah.

TJ: Oh, we can just, we can, yeah, we can make them run more calls, it's fine.

That BLS unit can go past three first dos to pick up the person who fell, never mind the fact that they are on their 20th call and they might fall asleep at the wheel and

Dave: and die.

TJ: big deal, like

Dave: deal. Let's go. Well, and, and the other disconnect there is the people that are sitting at the top of the food chain.

They remember when, they remember what things were like when they were there. So, so they remember like, you know, you, you said what 3, 800 runs was, you know, like saying, you know, like they don't, they don't remember like a time, like their, their engine may have run 2000 runs back then. And they've been in headquarters for so long that they forget those shitty nights.

I've always said, and I still maintain it to this day that everybody at headquarters should have to come out. For one trick a year and ride with a busy company as a firefighter To see how this feels to like to see what things are like now because they think they remember in their head They're going.

Oh, yeah, I'd like I remember what it was like. No, you fucking don't No, you don't And until you come out here and work with us now, because not only have you, like, is the call volume increased by two or three, but you've also piled more shit on us, you know, training requirements, you know, like public ed requirements, you know, all these other things that you've given us.

To do, oh, they have time to do that. Well, they all have time to do this. Like, they'll have time to take care of their training. You know, like, they'll have time to do that. Bullshit! Come out here and run with us. And then, and then tell me I have time. You know, that, that, that infuriates me. Like, and, and no chief has had the balls to say I'm gonna make everybody at headquarters do that one, one trick a year.

None, not one. And I've told that to three different fire chiefs. Not one of them. Oh, like one of them was like, Oh, that's a good idea. I think we'll look into that.

TJ: look into that.

Yeah, yeah, yeah,

Dave: Yeah, sure did. But, uh, but yeah, yeah. They, they, they just won't.

TJ: Yeah,

Dave: Yeah. And you know, they can say, well, we're, we're too busy. We're this, we're that.

Oh, really? Are you now? You're too busy to see what your people go through every day. That's a disconnect that is not unique to us, and it's been through. I think, but

TJ: really, really angry.

Dave: to the boots on the ground.

TJ: throat. Anyway. It was good reading that book, but it was, again, infuriating then going back to organizations and systems that insist that the higher ups know how things are.

It doesn't, it doesn't matter where you are, military, fire service, police department, anything. Once you start removing yourself from that, there was a guy who worked the headquarters. He used to come into a firehouse and be like, I'm hanging out with, with the men. He would just sit there and do computer work at the kitchen table while they all went out and ran calls and he would make his meals.

That doesn't count. That doesn't count. And you are missing that perspective of the people on the ground. Hey, these are the issues we're having with the equipment. This is what's falling

Dave: apart. Exactly.

TJ: are the issues we're dealing in a post COVID world with the things that we have to do and the people that we're dealing with and

Dave: Just to call volume. Quote on quote, I did my time. I paid my dues. They don't, they don't remember the bad stuff. Like, there are some people at headquarters right now that probably remember, like, not running, like, not running a call the entire shift.

TJ: like,

Dave: That don't, that don't happen no more, son. Like, you know, and it's just getting worse.