036. There's Something To Be Said For Shared Discomfort - Dave Angelo [Part 2]

In Part 2 of our series with returning guest Dave Angelo, we delve deeper into the unique challenges faced by today's firefighters and explore the profound impact of generosity, camaraderie, and self-worth within the fire service.

🔥 Join your host, TJ, as he embarks on an emotional journey with Dave, reflecting on the challenges that modern firefighters confront. From the battles against cancer to the unwavering spirit of generosity, this episode uncovers the raw realities and heartwarming moments that define the firefighting brotherhood.

🌟 Dive into the depths of emotion as Dave shares his firsthand experience of receiving a cancer diagnosis. Explore the gut-wrenching fear and resilience that accompany such a diagnosis, and discover the strength that emerges from facing adversity head-on.

💪 Explore the boundless generosity of firefighters as Dave recounts heartwarming tales of unity and support within the firefighting community. From rallying behind a brother in need to going above and beyond the call of duty, these stories exemplify the selflessness that defines the firefighting ethos.

🌟 Lastly, join us as we unpack the profound impact of a fire service career on one's self-worth. Discover how the unique challenges and triumphs of firefighting can shape individuals, instilling a sense of purpose, pride, and resilience that transcends the fireground.

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Transcript

Dave: Yeah. And you know, they can say, well, we're, we're too busy. We're this, we're that.

Oh, really? Are you now? You're too busy to see what your people go through every day. That's a disconnect that is not unique to us, and it's been through. I think, but

TJ: really, really angry.

Dave: to the boots on the ground.

TJ: throat. Anyway. It was good reading that book, but it was, again, infuriating then going back to organizations and systems that insist that the higher ups know how things are.

It doesn't, it doesn't matter where you are, military, fire service, police department, anything. Once you start removing yourself from that, there was a guy who worked the headquarters. He used to come into a firehouse and be like, I'm hanging out with, with the men. He would just sit there and do computer work at the kitchen table while they all went out and ran calls and he would make his meals.

That doesn't count. That doesn't count. And you are missing that perspective of the people on the ground. Hey, these are the issues we're having with the equipment. This is what's falling

Dave: apart. Exactly.

TJ: are the issues we're dealing in a post COVID world with the things that we have to do and the people that we're dealing with and

Dave: Just to call volume. Quote on quote, I did my time. I paid my dues. They don't, they don't remember the bad stuff. Like, there are some people at headquarters right now that probably remember, like, not running, like, not running a call the entire shift.

TJ: like,

Dave: That don't, that don't happen no more, son. Like, you know, and it's just getting worse.

You know, like, from, from, you know, the feedback that I'm getting from people that I know.

TJ: just getting worse.

Dave: That's a perfect segue into some notes that you took that you sent me.

TJ: What do you miss and what do you not

Dave: not miss?

TJ: how has that perspective changed as you're going into

Dave: a couple years post retirement?

TJ: Like I

Dave: I miss going to fires, you know, like I, like, you know, even though we don't, you know, like don't get didn't go to that many fires, you know, at the end of my career, like there were times when, you know, we'd be, you know, I'd be in the front seat.

Like I settle in, get everything, you know, figure out where we're going. You know, I'm reading a map book, you know, I like all the feedback that we're getting is like, Oh, sounds like something, this is going to be, this is going to be good. Like across from next to blah, blah, blah, multiple calls, that kind of shit.

And I would like, there were a couple of times that I actually stepped back and went, I love doing, I can't believe they pay me for this shit. Oh my God, this is so much fun. You know, like, and then you get back into like, into, you know, like getting ready for your shit mode. Um, so I, I miss that. Um, I miss those.

Yeah. Like, I miss those conversations about the shitty calls that we ran the night before, that kind of stuff. Um, uh, shoot, I, I know there was something else I was gonna say.

TJ: don't miss, um,

Dave: miss, um, I, I don't miss.

TJ: miss

Dave: Having shit piled on us by the higher ups that like here, here's another thing to do and another thing to do and another thing to do.

Um, I don't miss that. I don't miss all the computer work. Um, you know, especially when the computer programs don't run properly and, you know, like, and, you know, or they crash or whatever. Um. I don't miss going into stinky houses, dude. Um, you know, the smelly

TJ: don't miss walking on the piss cover floor?

Dave: The smelly, bug infested houses. Like, you know, roaches everywhere and shit like that. Like, I don't miss that. Um, I don't miss, yeah, hearing The, the, the screams of the loved ones, you know, like, you know, telling their, you know, the loved one that we're doing CPR on that clearly ain't gonna make it to wake up.

I don't miss that. Yeah, that, you know, that stuck with me, especially at the end of my career. Um, so those are the things I don't miss. Um, but, uh, yeah, yeah, that, like, it's, uh, Um, you know, retirement is, it's not awful, you know, like, you know, like I don't hate it, but yeah, but, but it can be boring at times. Um, God, there was something else that I wanted to like to hit on and I cannot remember what the hell it is.

Um, yeah, maybe I'll think about it later. Let me read something that

TJ: you wrote back. And October, October 24th of 2023, and then we can dissect it because you,

Dave: Oh, that's exactly what it was.

TJ: is that where we're heading?

Dave: that's where we're headed, yeah. Should

TJ: I read this

Dave: yeah, yeah, go ahead.

TJ: so you sent me this, this note that, that he wrote in what appears to be your journal in October 24th, 2023. One of the last talked about aspects about the job I miss is this, the feeling of being invulnerable.

Logically, I know it's not true. Yeah, yeah, that feeling of invulnerability, you just don't, you're like, ah, I

Dave: um Yeah, yeah, that feeling of invulnerability, like you just don't, you're like, I miss that. Um, I remember we ran a call probably maybe two months before I retired.

It was a, um, pedestrian struck in front of a middle school, um, girl had a broken femur, right? So we're like, you know, we're, we're, you know, we're You know, putting the hair tracks and splint on or we're, you know, getting our shit together. And of course it's the end of school. So everybody's gathering around and gathering around and getting closer.

And I remember at one point just yelling at everybody, like everybody needs just back up, get on the sidewalk right now. I'm telling you everybody. And they did. And I, I, I like, uh, I remember thinking like literally almost like two seconds later, I'm like, You know what like a couple months from now if I do that people are gonna beat my ass Yeah, like they heard they are not gonna listen to me But simply because you were there you were part of you know The engine crew you had gear on you came off a fire engine you had a radio on your hip like they listen to you and Yeah, there's that, that's some pretty powerful stuff there.

Like you, you don't realize at the time how you like how heady that is and how addictive it is to be like, feel like I can walk in really shitty neighborhoods right now and nobody's going to fuck with me. just not. You know, because you're, you know, you have a crew, like basically you have a crew of like two or three other people around you that are all wearing gear and Yeah, like I remember being in a bad neighborhood We were working a shooting and Some kid comes up and he starts yelling at us, you know, like, you know Like and giving a shit and this older dude steps in like clearly, you know part of the community.

He's like You leave those people alone. They're here to help you

TJ: and

Dave: and that young guy just went Thank you, sir. I mean, yeah, but yeah, yeah, like we're, we're definitely caught off guard. If people don't listen to us, we're caught off guard. If people were angry, we get there like not like the big difference between us and cops is 95 percent of the time when we get there, when people call us and we get there, everybody's happy to see us.

They're like, yay. 99 percent of the time when they get called and they show up, somebody there is really, really pissed off that they're there. Like, and they're like that. So that's, that's, I think one of the bigger differences between, between them and us.

TJ: Um,

Dave: Additionally, as far as things I miss, like the job after a while, it makes you feel like you have a purpose.

You know, especially at the end of your career, like you feel like this is my purpose. This is why I was put on this planet. Like, and you feel like what you do matters and you have a mission. Once you retire that, that kind of goes away. Like, you know, it, it, it, it, it, it, it just is, you know, like you, you don't, you feel like you kind of drift because you, you look for a new purpose.

You look for something to fill that void. And no matter what you do,

TJ: it's never going

Dave: it's never going to be, it's never going to feel like that. So that's, that's one of the difficulties I think with, with retirement. Um, And that's one of the things I miss is, is, you know, having that clear purpose. So

TJ: I have a two fold question.

Dave: when

TJ: it comes to purpose,

Dave: We're

TJ: we're seeing incredible rates of burnout. We are seeing like, again, the post COVID world flipped everything around for the fire service

Dave: Agreed. And

TJ: started seeing a lot more younger folks with five, 10 years being like deuces. I'm out. Like, I'm going to go do other stuff. For those who are still in, who may not be close to retirement age,

Dave: what sort of

TJ: advice would you give in terms of regaining that purpose? How to, look at me now, like pretend I am that person saying, I'm fucking done. had enough. I've had enough human suffering. I've had enough of lack of sleep. I don't believe in the mission anymore. If I'm at that point, how do I regain that purpose? How do I morph it? How do I help it evolve? What can I do?

Dave: That's a, man, that's a, honestly, it's a tough question to answer because I think it, it comes.

from, from your own personal experience. And if you're, you know, if you're having a, if you're not having fun, um, then, then it can be a challenge, you know, especially like you said, you mentioned, you know, you mentioned the, you know, the, the human suffering part, the lack of sleep part. Um,

TJ: going, that's going to get

Dave: I would,

TJ: You

Dave: I'm not going to sit here and, and, and bullshit you like somebody from headquarters and going, it's going to get better. It's fine. You know, like, yeah, like I'm, I'm, I can't do that. Like you know, because y'all are experiencing shit that I didn't have to experience. Until the end of my career and by the end of my career, I'm a fire captain on a fire engine.

I'm not riding a medic unit every fucking night. Like, you know, like, so I, I can't sit here and go, Oh, it's going to get better. You know, like everything's going to be fine. Um,

TJ: I

Dave: I would, I would, I would say that now looking back on my career, I'm glad I did it. You know, and there were, you know, again, it wasn't all sunshine and rainbows and there were, there were dark times.

Um. But overall, I, I, I, I like the person I see in the, in the mirror because, you know, to a large degree because what I did. And, um, and even though I don't do it now, like, you know, like My, as far as giving myself purpose and stuff like that, like I'm part of the peer support team now, um, that, that helps fill a little bit of that void on volunteering, um, you know, at the local volunteer fire company, which, you know, also helps that niche, but I, I, I would, I would submit to you that it's still worth it, you know, and, and you're going to look back at, uh, At your life and your career and go, okay, yeah, that was, you know, like, I would also say that maybe moving up in the food chain help is helpful because you can touch more people that way.

Um, and so consider that as an option and you don't ride the medic unit as much as you, you know, when you do. So

TJ: age

Dave: um, like it, it, it, it will, it will crush your soul. Like, and I know that, like, I don't, I know very few,

TJ: at

Dave: I think I know one dude

TJ: liked

Dave: that like, well, there, there, there, there are probably more than one, but you know, like only a few people that I know that like rode the medic unit from the time they got in the time they got out and yeah, that didn't hate their life at the end.

Like this guy still liked the job. That the one I'm thinking of, um, yeah, yeah. Good luck with that. Um, but yeah, yeah, that, that, that's a really tough thing. And I, I, I, I, I'm not sure there is a, you know, a comprehensive answer for

TJ: And you kind of touched on my second half of the question, which was the purpose post retirement because selfishly, um, you know, I'm talking to you, I talked to my buddy Jim from Ohio who's been retired for a while. I'm on, I'm on that downhill slope. Should I continue aiming at only 20?

Dave: And

TJ: I want to get ahead of the curve and start thinking what next.

Not to mention the fact that I've talked to a couple folks recently who were like, Hey, uh, soon enough I'm going to be a former firefighter. And, um, and that kind of like gets the, gets the gears turning. And you mentioned peer support team. Tell me a little bit about peer support because I have a very, Disgruntled view when it comes to SISM and a bit about peer support.

But can you walk us a little

Dave: bit through that? Well, CISM and peer support are two different things.

TJ: you. That's where I want it to go.

Dave: two different things. CISM, you know, is, um, for, you know, basically it's, It's for a very specific thing. It's for that specific shitty incident that you know, like is so traumatic that it's going to fuck you up like right away and you need a SISM team to come in, you know, and, and do that whole debriefing thing and all that other stuff.

That's, that's a whole nother niche. Peer support is. That overall mental health, like, Hey man, I'm, I'm, I'm having a tough time here with, you know, just like, I'm not, uh, I'm not eating right and I'm not sleeping right. Or, you know, like you work with somebody, you notice that there's a change in their demeanor, that kind of thing.

Hey man, you're like, you know, like, are you okay? Like, you know, like, um, I know this guy's on the peer support team. Um, yeah, if you want to talk to him, that's cool. Um, we're very much, you know, like if you want to talk to me, that's fine. If you don't want to talk to me, that's fine. But here are some resources that are available.

If you want to talk to somebody, anybody, um, now that said, like, you know, like there are a couple of things that are very, very necessary. One is confidentiality. That is such. A huge thing. And you know, like you have to have, if you, if you're on a peer support team, you have to have the integrity to be able to not like discuss anything that any, you know, anybody is shared with you and confidentiality outside of.

I'm going to like, I think this person is going to hurt their self. If that, if I, if I think that you come to me and you go, ah, like I was looking at my clock the other day and you know, like I'm, I'm, I'm be like, all right, well now we can't be confidential. Like because you're, you're like, you're thinking about hurting yourself, hurting somebody else.

All bets are off the table and we need to get you some fucking help and we're going to do that outside of that Everything has to be confidential. And if you don't have confidentiality on your peer support team, then then then you're fucked That's why I think you know, the the people that are on the team have to have a high degree of integrity that You know, they're gonna they're they're gonna Do what they say they're going to do You know, and not only are they going to talk that talk, but they're going to walk that walk, which is crucial to being on the peer support team.

Um, now I will say one of the things that I did about a year before I retired is, um, started talking to a counselor. Um, I think that's huge because we don't prepare people for retirement and, and like, it's, it's, it's a big change and it, we need to do better, but like, I'm, I'm a big proponent of counseling.

Um, the great thing about counselors is they don't have a nickel in, like they don't have any ulterior motive, like they're not trying to get in your pants. They're not trying to, you know, you know, get your money. They just want.

TJ: to help you.

Dave: So if you're sitting there bullshitting with them, you know, and bullshitting them, they're going to be like, I call bullshit. What's really going on? Yeah. And that's one of the great things about counseling. Um, so yeah, I'm, I'm a firm believer in that.

TJ: know that I've talked to Dave Smith about the whole CISM thing and a couple other folks, and I've been through a few CISM debriefing, the whole critical incident stress management, where it is so awkward because you're in a room with your peers, with whoever the CISM leader, whatever, advocate, person, rep might

Dave: And

TJ: they're like, okay. Who wants to go first? Let's talk about, let's talk about the feelings and you're taking these type A personalities who will stuff things

Dave: yeah, that's not going to work.

TJ: I never had the issue that Dave had. Like I, you know me, I like to run my mouth. I basically, I went first. I'm like, this is what happened.

This is what we experienced as a way of sort of trying to open the door, like kick it open. When Dave went through, there was always that crusty old senior guy who was like, Nah, we don't have a problem here. Everybody can deal with it themselves, and if they don't, they're pussies and they need to go home.

Dave: Right.

TJ: And that completely negates any sort of help that you might be getting your people. That's why I, personally, I don't believe in the whole SISM thing. I, it's, that approach needs to be tweaked. Yeah,

Dave: tweaked. I'm still seeing departments and organizations start

TJ: And that's, I, I love seeing departments and organizations start going to the peer model because it's easier for you to come to me as a peer and say, Hey, bro, what's up? Talk to me. And if not, I'm just going to sit here, shoot the shit with you,

Dave: but I'm going to be paying attention. You know, portion, right. The inventor of SISM. That was, that was kind of badass. Not that

TJ: any sort of conflict of interest there

Dave: Yeah, yeah, yeah, none.

TJ: And going back to the whole, to the counselor thing. Again, refreshing to see fire service in this day and age where that is talked about and advocated for and to be okay. I started seeing, I'm going on 10 years seeing this one therapist, which I found out recently that apparently it's highly unheard of to have just one therapist, like monogamous

Dave: Yeah, yeah. Oh,

TJ: that, um, patient slash provider relationship.

Dave: Right.

TJ: And when I first started, I used. Like I paid in cash, I used a different email, I like, I was so ashamed thinking that when it would come out, people were going to say that I was unworthy of being on the job, that I was broken, that I just didn't belong there. And in that short amount of time, having some of these old badass senior firefighters be like, Oh, yeah, I got to go talk to my,

Dave: my

TJ: therapist.

It's like, okay, that's, um,

Dave: Well, I, we're doing way better than we used to do. Like, you know, like when I, when I first came in, it was the, like, you know, suck it up buttercup era. And since then, I think we're doing a lot better at communicating to the newer members.

Like, you know, like you, like, it's okay. Yeah, it's okay to get help. It's okay to, you know, seek out help. Like when I started going to counseling years ago, it was because it was marriage counseling first. And then, then I realized that, okay, this has value for me personally as well. Um, so, so yeah, like, you know, I've gone on and off, you know, over the years and yeah, like, yeah.

I think it, it has value. I

TJ: I heard recently one of the, one of the podcasts that I listened to, one of my big idols talks about how he doesn't believe in therapy because you're basically just rehashing the problem and not just moving past it. And I try to look at therapy in that sort of lens and that there are things that we can just sit down. And put our thoughts and feelings onto paper or in our minds and be like, okay, this is what's happening. These are the factors bearing on the problem. This is how I need to move forward and I'm going to move forward. Many a times, at least for me, it's important to have somebody whom I trust with that professional education and experience to be like, hey, you are on the right path.

It's almost that

Dave: Yeah. You get that validation. Exactly. Yeah, exactly. Absolutely.

TJ: that validation.

Dave: Yep.

TJ: So we're talking about mental health. Are you ready to, um, To go deep and dark, I opened up questions to the Instagram broadcast channel, actually this morning. Like, Hey, I'm sitting down with Dave. We were on a couple episodes before.

What sort of things should we talk about? And this young man, I think, I don't even think he's in his thirties who has had a cancer diagnosis already. Shameful that we're at that point within our fire service. Something he wants to talk about is handling your mental health after that diagnosis. I haven't been there.

I can only imagine that it's like watching your entire world just collapse.

Dave: Um, yeah, yeah. Um, there is like, I was only, I was in my last year of, uh, being on the job when I got diagnosed, um, there is no kick in the nuts quite like a doctor sitting across from you saying you have cancer and um, this is what we need to do to treat it and it's going to suck when a like doctor's usually sugarcoat everything.

So when a doctor sits across from you and says this is going to suck, you need to believe him because he is not bullshitting. Um, Yeah, at first it was really hard. Um, you know, wrapping my mind around and of course you go, you know, like immediately to worst case scenario. Um, I think that's an interesting aspect of the mental part of this, of who we are as firefighters, like

TJ: who

Dave: us doesn't catastrophize every call that we get. Like we. You know, like we basically like if we get a call for a car wreck we are like, okay There's gonna be bodies everywhere. There's gonna be this there's gonna be that and then when you get there and it's not that bad You're like, oh I can deal with this So we have a tendency to do that anyway on practically every call we run on because we worst case scenario every call unfortunately, it kind of leaks over into our Personal lives and so like that was the first thing that happened, you know, I'm gonna die Um, you know, like I'm going to die of cancer horribly, blah, blah, blah.

Yeah. Um, and you know, after you get past that and go, okay, well, you know, you talk to your doctors, you know, I think trusting your doctor, you know, like your medical team really, because it is a medical team. When, when you go through cancer treatments, you know, you, you don't only have one doctor, you have a team of doctors and nurses and Um, so they will, you know, like you, you meet with them, you, they start to gain your trust and that's a big thing.

Um, trusting that they're going to do everything they can do to make you better. Like, and that's all you can do after that point is, you know, go through the treatments, um, and, and hope that, hope that it fucking works. Like I'm coming up on my three year Um, checkup in March, like March, April ish. Um, I'll go for my three year checkups.

I go to three doctors, um, my chemo doc, my radiation doc, and then my ear, nose and throat guy. So I'm just hoping that, you know, like, like the, they all say, yeah, you're good. See you in six months. Yeah. Now we're about a month or so out. I start to get a little anxious about it because like, I don't want to.

I don't want to hear anything else other than, we're good, we'll see you in six months. Um, if, you know, I think when you do go through it, if they do say, all right, well, we found something else, it's going to suck. You know, it'll be devastating. But then you just go, okay, well, what do we got to do now? Like, I trust that you're going to do what's best for me.

Trusting your doctors, I think, is one of the best things you can do for your mental health. Um, talking to people, like one of the hardest things was, you know, telling my mom who already is like buried two of her sons,

TJ: sons

Dave: you know, and one to cancer. Um, yeah. Um, and then telling my kids. Those two things were super, super difficult.

Um, but after that, having a good support network around you, that, that's huge. Um, my recovery wouldn't have been anywhere. I, I, I don't think it would've been possible without like my circle around me. I mean, between my family, my friends outside of the fire service, my friend, you know, like my family of the fire service.

Um. Yeah. Like the, the support was phenomenal. Like, and one of the, one of the best ways I can describe that is, uh, um, I had plenty of sick leave because I, you know, I was at the end of my career. So my lieutenant comes up to me, um, after I tell him my shift, he's like, so, uh, are you going to put an email out asking for exchange time?

Now we can like, people can work for us while we're sick and stuff like that. Um, normally. If, if I do exchange time for you, you do exchange time for me, you know, and you know, like you, we call it even, um, but for sick, like longterm sick and stuff like that, you just, people are just donating to you. And I had done it dozens of times before that, like throughout my career.

Well, I was like, nah, man, I'm good. I got, I got plenty of sick leave. And he's like, dude, people are going to want to help you. Um, let them, you know, give them a way to help you.

TJ: So I

Dave: So I was like, okay, so I put an email out, I put it out on Wednesday, like basically explaining like, look, I'm going to be, um, I'm going to need exchange time for the next three months.

I'm going to be going through cancer treatments. Um, if you feel inclined to, you know, um, donate exchange time or do exchange time for me. It'd be super appreciated. If not, just, you know, send me good vibes and you know, like and all that so On Friday After I emailed it out

I had people texting me and calling me going dude. Um, your calendars full for the next three months. How else can I help you? Uh, so when you're,

TJ: uh,

Dave: that was just overwhelming, you know, like, and clearly it chokes me up to this day, um, to be surrounded by people like that is, is incredible. You know, it just is. And you know, I'm humbled every time I think about that. That was, uh. That was pretty amazing. Um, but yeah, yeah, like, and, and then to be able to come back to work and finish out my career was, you know, like I, I, and, and, and finish it out on my terms.

I think that helped my mental health, but it was, uh, yeah, I, I, I think, you know, being surrounded by good people, like, I think that's one of the best things you can do for your mental health as far as that kind of stuff goes.

TJ: And sort of answering my own question because I'm like, I too am getting a little choked up when I asked the like, Hey, what if I lost my purpose?

Dave: It's

TJ: funny how when we feel the most lost and when the fire service makes no sense to us, it's those displays of humanity from our own people

Dave: that

TJ: sort of ground us again.

Because nowhere else, go to corporate America. If you get sick, nobody's going to give a shit. They're not even going to know you're gone.

Dave: No. No, not at all.

TJ: here you have people willingly giving the leave that they have earned, the time that they are willing to work

Dave: Oh, absolutely. Everything

TJ: Without any sort of expectation.

That's,

Dave: it's that

TJ: yeah. It's that community. That's what keeps us going.

Dave: exactly it.

You know, like, like, you know, to be surrounded by those kind of human beings is huge. And, and you're right, it doesn't happen anywhere else. Like, like one of my favorite stories about that is my, like a couple years before I retired, my brother was like, Hey, like you can retire pretty soon, right? Like you can like, you should be.

Getting ready to retire. He's like, when can you retire? I'm like about three years ago, and he's like, what the fuck is wrong with you? Jesus Christ go out and enjoy your life.

TJ: work. I'm

Dave: I'm like, dude, like I still love what I do Like I love the people I work with he's like, oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You're just afraid to admit you're getting old I'm like, no, that's not it.

But okay so We have a retirement party Um, for me, um, a month after I retired and my family comes down and so they go to the party. It was a blast. A whole bunch of people showed up. It was, it was just so much fun. And um, the next morning he's getting like, we have breakfast before he gets ready to roll back to Pennsylvania.

And he pulls me aside, he goes,

TJ: Until

Dave: Hey, uh, I owe you an apology. And I'm like, for what? He goes, I had no idea. Until I, until like, like those people love you. And I'm like, and I love them because I like, he's like, he's like, I had no idea it was like this. Like, I like, I don't have a frame of reference for this.

If I told people that I was going to have a party for my retirement, like three people would show up. And he's like, you know, there's this room full of people and they all love each other and they look, you know, like, you know, it's, he goes, they were truly your family. And I'm like, yeah, I told you, he goes, I know I heard the words, but until I was sitting in the middle of it, I didn't understand it.

And yeah, like that, that was one of my favorite moments that I was able to share that with my, my brother who had no idea. You know, he just couldn't even comprehend why I would want to hang out for another couple of years.

TJ: couldn't even comprehend why I would want to hang out for another couple years.

Dave: in Richmond with some friends from college and high school and

TJ: Every now and then I would like contribute a story of something that we had done at the firehouse.

Dave: And it

TJ: And it was mostly like these puzzled looks of like, A, you guys did what? B, you guys are

Dave: employable?

TJ: employable? And C, how do you know so much about your shift mates? Like, how do you know? Like, how? It's, it really, it really shows.

That level of connection and understanding and kinship that we have just by wearing the same uniform and doing the same hard shit together. Absolutely.

Dave: Well, there's, there's, uh, there's absolutely something to be said for, um, shared discomfort. You know, like, yeah, that's, that's, that's one of the reasons that the firehouse kitchen table is so cool.

And it's also like one of the things that you notice when you retire that you become a guest at that table. You're no longer part of that table like, you know, I'm always welcome. I know I can go to Dundalk tonight and they would invite me in for dinner and it would, you know, like it would be like, yeah, it's always like going to be like that, but You're a visitor.

Yeah. Yeah. And, and, and because you don't share that misery with him anymore. You don't share that discomfort. Like you didn't share that shitty call with him last night at two o'clock in the morning where this, you know, 300 pound asshole was giving you a bunch of shit. You know, like, you know, you, you don't have that anymore.

Um, so yeah, there's definitely something to be said for that, you know, shared discomfort. building really, really strong bonds with people.

TJ: I went to a party.

Dave: Anyway, like, and I went to a party over the summer where there were a bunch of retired guys and these are guys that I worked with for years in Dundalk and it was just like, you know, we were, you know, if we didn't miss a beat and we were like all, you know, talking about calls we ran 20 years ago and people we work with and these assholes and remember that asshole call.

And you know, like it was just, you know, that, that those kinds of bonds are. It's impossible to explain to somebody that doesn't, you know, works in corporate America or like, it's just not normal. We've

TJ: all experienced it, like, especially when when out traveling, it's almost like finding our tribe, wherever we might

Dave: Oh, hell yeah.

TJ: it's it's so fun watching. Our non fire department friends observe and also it's, it's like a, like a little, like a weird dance that if you see somebody in the fire department and like you have a question or whatever, you just come up to the firehouse.

Hey, can I take a look around? You start dropping the certain words so they know you're on the job.

Dave: job.

And

TJ: you don't show up and you go, Hey, uh, I work here and there. You're like, Oh, you know, Hey, that's a, that's a nice E1 you got there or

Dave: and there.

TJ: So that they kind of pick up on

Dave: that. And the next

TJ: thing you know, you're talking like you have been best friends forever.

You're talking about the same bullshit and friends or family are looking at you. Like how I went. I went to Belgium and well, I was in Amsterdam and I rented a car with my family. Drove down to Belgium to meet one of the members of the Keep the Promise community. Yeah. Basically ditched my family to go have lunch and then I hung out with him at his firehouse for like six hours and again Complete opposite side of the world.

It was like we had been best friends forever. Like we had been on the same calls We're shooting this shit. I'm amazed by all his equipment He's asking me about leather helmets and shit that we do

Dave: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.

TJ: It's it's just wild. It's the that That camaraderie spans across the globe.

Dave: much so. Like I, I, you know, I stayed on the beach, um, a couple of months ago, um, down in South Carolina and the firehouse was right around like maybe a block away.

So I'm walking past, they're doing their apparatus checks and shit like that. And, you know, I'm like, Hey, like, you know, like, yeah, do you guys work at 24 shift? Do you like, you know, and like, yeah, you know, you ask them about their shift configuration, like, you know, like, Yeah. What kind of officers, you know, what, you know, who rides officers, stuff like that, they're like, Oh, okay.

And they're like, so, so, so, you know, like we're, you know, like, were you on the job? And I'm like, yeah. You know, like, and you, you, you know, give them a little brief history and they're like, yeah, come on in, grab some coffee. We'll, bullshit. You know, and you find yourself there for like two hours and you know, talking about the same bull, you know, like, you know the same stuff.

You know that they're deal, they're dealing with the, you know, the same things that we are.