043. Do The Thing That Everyone Is Afraid Of - Imposter Syndrome [Part 2]

In Part 2 of our imposter syndrome series, Brian Yonkin discusses his personal experiences with imposter syndrome, specifically in the context of firefighting. He covers how receiving positive feedback can help mitigate feelings of inadequacy and how empowering team members can create a more supportive environment. Brian reveals how EMDR therapy and reflection helped him overcome his doubts. He also emphasizes the importance of relatability, peer support, and the need for high performers in critical fields to recognize their self-worth. The episode also explores strategies for maintaining confidence and authenticity in high-stakes environments.

00:00 Introduction and Positive Feedback
00:27 A Challenging Vehicle Accident
02:57 Dealing with Imposter Syndrome
04:08 Recognizing and Managing Triggers
07:29 Strategies to Combat Imposter Syndrome
09:42 Empowering Feedback in the Fire Service
12:08 Personal Experiences and Reflections
14:42 The Importance of Positive Reinforcement
24:10 Conclusion and Call to Action
25:52 Immediate Transformation
26:33 Reflecting on Personal Growth
27:19 Future Self Advice
28:29 Legacy and Vulnerability
28:47 Facing Tough Decisions
29:49 Eulogy Exercise
32:29 Relatability vs Vulnerability
33:29 Firehouse Communication
36:01 Philosophical Insights
43:49 Iron Will Coaching
46:52 Closing Thoughts and Community

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Transcript

Brian: It was a specific incident that gave me like it brought me back to eat Mr. Like it made me dissociate and I was like, I was like, Oh, it took me three days to get over this call and it wasn't even that bad of a call.

It was just what had happened at the call. Uh, so, we went to this vehicle accident. Uh, car on its side, this lady's trapped in there. She's not really hurt that bad. She's just kind of in there. And it took us like 15, 20 minutes to cut this roof off. And it was just like everything we were doing wasn't working.

And I'd be like, hey, you go do this thing. And then they, I'd see them go do it. And then I'd turn around and I'd look back and they had put that tool down. And I was like, what the fuck? And then, uh, I'd be like, hey. Go do this thing. Get this, get this thing. And I'd see them going on the way to do it. And then they would just stop.

And I was just like, what the fuck is going on here? Um, and then, um, I ended up like involving myself in the extrication because I was just like, Hey, somebody needs to get the Sawzall and do the thing. And it was just like, slow motion. You know what I mean? Like every, I was just like, okay, I guess I'm doing this.

You know what I mean? Like this lady needs to get the fuck out of here. She's been in here for too long. Uh, so I start doing the thing and I start cutting the, uh, we cut all the posts, but then the last post was like high strength steel and we couldn't get through it because it was like, I don't know, super thick, whatever it was.

Um, we tried sawzall, tried the cutters, tried to hide the speedway cutters. Um, nothing was working. So we, we did just did like a relief cut straight down and then left the, the D posts on both sides there. And it was just like, went through the sheet metal. So the post was like, And then she was out and we're good.

So I was like, oh cool. And I went back to the firehouse, couldn't fucking sleep. You know what I mean? I was just like, couldn't suffer sleep for shit for like two days. Grumpy motherfucker. So I was like, I know, I know what that is because I've been to, uh, to EDMR and that was some of the stuff that was going on before.

So I was like, all right, we need to do this thing. And he was like, it sounds like your boy's let down. Uh, um, so we worked through it and it was like, um, I can't remember what had happened, but I'd worked through that. And then after I had worked through the imposter syndrome, I had looked back on all the stuff that had happened since the custody in that call was it felt like I was a fraud, that's why people weren't listening to me, um, or like I hadn't, they didn't respect me or whatever, all these things, all these excuses that had come up in my brain, as to why they weren't doing the thing, but I didn't have the whole picture at that point, right, so I didn't have the whole picture of, like, Somebody stopped them on the, on the way and be like, Hey, we're not doing that.

Or the other Lieutenant who's a rescue lieutenant was like running the show. And I was just kind of trying to do tactics at that point. You know what I mean? So it's just like, I was interjecting in the plan and I didn't know, but it felt like all this things happened. So it was just like, it was nice to kind of like get full closure on why I felt that way instead of just, you know, working through it, EDMR, which helped a hundred percent, but like, you know, get that last little edge off wasn't mhm.

TJ: It's interesting how the, I don't want to say the least traumatic calls, because that would be, that would be taking away from the fact that we do deal with traumatic shit, but it's interesting how it's not the ones that we expect that trigger us, or it could be the stroller broke the camel's back, whatever you want to call it.

Like the, when it finally makes you overflow, those are the ones that sort of send you into, into that tailspin. I mean, I've, I've been in similar situations where you get back, you know, from like, A bullshit extrication or, you know, one that you knew what the outcome was going to be, but you still were trying and you get back here like that did not go as it should have, and it's even worse when you can't shake the feeling, even though, you know, either a we performed extremely well and it still didn't work out or B. Somebody else dropped the ball royally. And there was nothing we could do to change. There comes a point that we have to step back and say like, okay, it was not me. And even I've, I've gone through the experiences where even when I recognize that, when I recognize that my effort was not going to change the outcome.

When I recognize that maybe somebody else's lack of effort did it like whatever, like I, I am completely removed from this outcome and it still

Brian: Yeah, no, that's what it was, uh, that my therapist worked through me, worked through with me. It was like, you do what you had to do, you know what I mean, like, just there's external factors that are out of your control, that are just like, nothing you can do about it. Like, you were doing your best, and the guys were doing their best, and you know, they're there for you, and et cetera, et cetera, and like, so I had to like, you know, reframe my thinking that these dudes weren't going to help me.

So. Which is weird to think about when you hang out with all these guys, you know, for years and you're like, Oh, these are my buddies, you know, they're my brothers or whatever. I'll go to their house and fucking help them build a deck or whatever it is, you know, like, it was cool that I worked through that and then worked through it again after figuring out all the rest of my junk.

TJ: Yeah, and you having the wherewithal to go back after working through your stuff and seeing it through a different lens, it had to have been a hell of a good

Brian: Oh yeah, and it was like, it was like, you know, when you hear the term drinking from a firehose, like that weekend was just like, all these things, you know, it was just like, The shoulder pain went away, you know what I mean, and all that, you know, the heart, the heart's palpitations, whatever that is, didn't feel like palpitations, felt like I was having a fucking heart attack.

That went away, and I was just like, oh, well, it's just this thing that I was dealing with that I couldn't quite figure out until somebody made it. You know, applicable to how I exactly was feeling. So,

TJ: Okay, so, so far we've talked about what it is, what imposter syndrome is, we have established the fact that high performers In this field that we deal with in the fire service, and I guarantee you, police, military nurses, like anybody else who is in the same world as ours, where the stakes are high, where the time is limited and where you're constantly tested, guarantee you people feel that way.

So we know that we are prone to it. We have talked through how to recognize that the lack of excitement, that the physiological manifestations, the. The panic attacks, the, the things that we do ourselves, the posting the fire videos to prove to whomever that I am hot shit. I am doing

Brian: Or whatever. You want the, the bravado,

TJ: right. I'm the motherfucking man. So now let's talk about the high level and the low level. So let's talk about the strategies for I don't want to say beating it because I think it's a constant struggle, but the strategies for keeping it at bay and then let's dig into those daily, might be weekly, might be hourly habits to make that strategy come to fruition and keep it at bay.

It's just like dealing with nihilism and you know, I, sometimes I get down the rabbit hole of like, What this, why does this even matter? Because one day we're all going to die and it's all just going to be darkness. 

Brian: You need to, you need to 

read, uh, 

TJ: So why do it? And it's every 

Brian: you need to, 

TJ: fighting it. So 

Brian: first, you need to read some mic. And, uh, uh, uh, yeah, that'll help for the Ubermache imposter

TJ: nor there. Let's talk about imposter 

Brian: syndrome.

Yeah. So the, the, the strategies that have found effective for me is I have a coach that is like, yeah, you're doing the things like you hit the benchmark. Don't be so hard on yourself.

You know what I mean? Like you're doing good. Like, it's totally cool. You know what I mean? Like, but I don't think that we give enough positive feedback. Yeah. Correctly in the fire service, like, uh, we're quick to, um, to, you know,

I can't think of the word quick to, you know, yell at, yell at people or criticize. Uh, yeah. We're quick to criticize and not quite understand where somebody is at all the time. Right. You know, like, Oh, we don't know that term. It's like, we don't know exactly what people are going through. It's like, yeah. If you're, You can say that, but if you're, you know, only criticizing bad actions or actions that aren't good, you know what I mean?

Like that's, that is a disservice to people be like, Hey, what's up dude? Why'd you do that? You know what I mean? Like that sort of thing. Or, Hey, I saw that you're really working hard on that. Hey, good job. Can I give you some feedback? You know what I mean? Or just random feedback stuff like, Hey, can I give you some feedback?

And that allows them to be like yes or no. You know what I mean? Yeah. Go ahead. Well, hey, I saw you've been doing this, that, and other thing. I think it's fucking awesome. Like. It feels like you're really fucking, you know, doing the thing That's important to everybody here. And I'd like to see you do more of that stuff and that's it That's all you got to do or like when they do something bad be like, hey, man Uh, can I give you some feedback right now?

And they can be like, yeah, sure. Hey what you did, you know doesn't jive with What's going on? I'm kind of curious, you know, it feels like this Reason why you did that. Would that be true for you? Uh, yes or no? Uh, no. Uh, okay. So yeah, just don't fucking do that in the future. Whatever it doesn't have to be like this big long dissertation, or like this, that, and the other thing, or just like attacking somebody right away.

You know what I mean? Like, yeah, that's one way to do it. It's an old school way to do it. You know what I mean? My dad was a dick too, you know what I'm saying? I don't need you to be a dick.

TJ: I think dealing with that old school mentality, or I honestly think this might be like, uh, A systemic issue in the fire service because somebody will be doing something and you are approaching them to give them praise to say, Hey, you are doing a fantastic job and you can see in their eyes. If they're almost like a cornered animal where they're waiting, they're like, this guy's going to give me the compliment sandwich.

He's going to say something nice. He's going to shit on me. And then he's going to say something nice. And they are so, I mean, I've experienced it. I've had people come up to me and be like, Hey dude, good job doing that and they walk away I'm like Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Where, where's the criticism? Like, you're not gonna shit on how I'm doing things?

You're not gonna tell me that I'm wrong? What happened? 

Brian: Which also adds, 

TJ: And the fact that we are all

Brian: the imposter syndrome, right? If you're getting criticized all the time. Oh, obviously I'm doing fucking something wrong, you know what I mean? Like, oh, my. This guy thinks I'm doing something wrong, but that guy thinks I'm doing something wrong. And like I told my wife, I was like, maybe I'm fucking up.

She's like, no you're not. I was like, are you sure? Because all I'm getting is like fucking beat up down, beat down, you know what I mean? Like, every time I do something, it felt like anything, you know what I mean? And that could just be my perception, uh, or, you know, my lack of, you know, like the suck up, you gotta suck it up, you know what I mean?

Like the, you just gotta deal with it. It's like, do I really have to? Or maybe it's just your delivery, you know what I mean? Like, uh, you know, and it's just like, It could be a senior fireman telling me that, you know, and they're, they're playful when they do it. You know what I mean? You're like, really fucking irritates me.

And just like, all right, you're allowed to say whatever the fuck you want. And I'm not like, what the fuck, you know what I mean? Like, I don't get that, but the beauty with the fire service is I can say whatever I, I just have to be okay with the ramifications of whatever that is. You know what I mean? So like, and that was part of like the, the release of this.

Junk. I was like, I thought that I had to like be this proper fucking dude that just shut his mouth and just did the thing. You know what I mean? Like, and that's what I was told to do. You know what I mean? Like, no, do the thing. Don't cause any problems. Yeah, I'm a, I, I, when I was a kitchen, you know, when I was a chef, I ran that motherfucker like a pirate ship and it worked, you know what I mean?

So that's what I know how to do. So, and pirates,

TJ: Yeah, pirate ship, because everyone's drunk in the kitchen.

Brian: I can't. I can't speak to that. I already said that I speak to whatever it is. You know what I mean? But like that has helped me, um, combat, combatting my foster syndrome is just giving good feedback and being like, Hey, can I give you feedback right now? Instead of like being like, Hey, you shouldn't have done that.

Do it this way. You know what I mean? Ask.

TJ: So you're making a point to give them the option. So, empowering them to, to Take it or leave it because that 

Brian: Yes. Yeah. So where they're at right now, maybe they're really fucking frustrated they couldn't force their door. You know what I mean? And they just have to calm down first. To get the emotion out of it. And I'm giving them the opportunity to do that. And that's it. You know what I mean? And that, I feel, is respectful.

For one. You know what I mean? And two, it's like, oh that dude is This guy's different. He's doing it different. Like, why? You know what I mean? So I just want you to do well. Like, that's it. That's my job. So make sure you do well, and if you can't think straight, I can't teach you. So, you know what I mean? So, uh, why be a dick when I don't have to be?

Well, I can be stern and you can get the point, you know what I mean? So, or whatever it is, you know, you catch more, more bees with honey or with sugar than, or more flies. You catch more flies with sugar than vinegar or whatever it is.

TJ: interesting. I do like the approach of empowering whoever's receiving the feedback to, I don't know, to give them that choice. I know I can speak for my experience because I was, I've never been in that leadership position, um, unofficial. I mean, I guess in a sense. But I'm usually the one getting the feedback and there have been times that that voice inside my head is saying, tell that lieutenant to shut the fuck up.

You're not ready to hear anything right now. Let me finish fighting the stupid door prop or let me finish, 

Brian: the floors or whatever it is. You know what I mean?

TJ: Yeah, whatever it is, getting my ass kicked by this hose or, you know, finish wearing the ladder as a necklace, whatever I'm struggling with right now, and then I will be open to suggestions.

But right now, your voice only makes me

Brian: Yeah, so to be clear, that's not how I do things at fires, right? It's very clear direction like hey you need to be doing this So but like the fact that I take the time in the firehouse to do that or in trainings and be like Will affect their ways of receptive receiving it extra Incident, you know, so.

And now that I think about it, like, that feedback message, my father gave to me years ago. Because I was like frustrated with him, and like, uh, how he would just give, he would just be like, Oh, this is what you should do, you know what I mean? Like, that. Fucking unwanted advice or unwanted feedback. He's like, okay, so here's what we can do.

This is what I used to do in my job. You know what I mean? I'll be like, if you want to tell me something, you're like, hey, can I give you some feedback? And that tells me, it gives me the opportunity to do things and I get to choose yes or no. And then it gives me an opportunity to shut the fuck up and listen to you.

And if I don't, then you can be like, Hey, uh, what the fuck? You know what I mean? You said yes. And you're not listening to me. So that is like our little keyword to be like, Hey. I need you to shut up and listen to me. You know what I mean? Like, uh, but then my, my, my part time boss does the same thing. I mean, that was one of the things in this, um, in the app, uh, the interview.

I was like, hi, how do you guys do feedback? It's like, oh, we do this. It's called PFFFF. It's the permission, facts, feelings, future. And I was like, oh, okay. I can be done with that. You know what I mean? I was like, Because if you just give me a trick to me, I don't want to work for you. You know what I mean? He's like, no, that's a really good question. And it just like, because my dad did it, and this guy does it, like, that's more than just one time of me hearing it. And it's like, Because it happens, like he, out of the blue, the one day he was like, my, my partner was like, Hey, can I give you some feedback? And I was like, I was like checking on my work and he didn't respond to me for like 20 minutes and I was just flipping out and I was like, Oh fuck, oh fuck, oh fuck, and he's like, Hey man, you're just, you know, you're doing really good.

Uh, here's the facts. Like, you know, as soon as we, um, let you loose to the dogs, we hit the ground running. You've been doing this, you've been doing that. It's like, you're doing really good. Keep it up. And I was just like, Fuck man, I thought I was getting in trouble. He's like no dude. I was like, well, i'm just i'm just not used to that.

So But it was nice just to like get some positive feedback and it feels It makes you think that you're you're not an imposter because someone else is going. Hey, you're doing a good job You know what I mean? So like not only does that help me be a better leader You know what I mean and take that imposter syndrome away from that it empowers other people to feel like they're They're doing a good job, too

TJ: Yeah, that's that's a solid strategy of having that outsider that that coach figure that mentor figure who Enables you to share your vulnerabilities and who understands how to deliver that message and having somebody who understands how to talk to you, I think that's the simplest way of putting it can do so much.

I, we talked earlier about the story of, of the captain whom I admire so much, who told me you made the right decision after I made a very tough call. And having that sort of having somebody whom you admire basically say, Hey, your assessment was spot on. I agree with it. I'm looking back like, okay, you've saved my life multiple times.

You have got me at a situations with your thinking that would have otherwise got like would have been way worse. So for you to say that. My assessment and my decision was the right one. Okay. I'm on the right path then like that is not that I needed permission, but in a sense that inner child in me said, okay, you got, you got that blessing.

You got that permission from the

Brian: There it is. Right there. There it is. You've done some work on yourself there, friend. Nice. Oh,

well. 

TJ: up with you, bro.

Brian: just his journey. You know what I mean? It's like, you describe, what you describe is like that uncle that you can go to to anything, and he'll just give you straight up, like, no bullshit answer. At least in my family.

You know, my uncle's the way. Oh, yeah. Yeah, you got some good instincts or whatever, or this, that, or anything. You're like, Oh, cool. You know what I mean? That's all I needed. That's it. You know what I mean? Just that little thing. You know what I mean? And then the senior fireman is in my mind, like that guy.

To reel you in. If you're, if you don't have like, if you're not like a senior person in your firehouse as an officer, the senior man who has all that life experience, who has kids that are probably close to your age, you know what I mean? Like, or whatever, like he's dealt with all that stuff. He knows how to talk to you.

You know what I mean? He's probably sat and watched you, you know, suffer through some stuff, you know, and just like, Hey, yeah, you're doing a good job. You know what I mean? And you can be frank with them at that point and be like, Hey, yeah, Just get me where I need to be, you know what I mean? Like, or the, or the uncle. You know, you go to your uncle, or your captain. That's how I look at it, your uncle. I'm like, hey, am I doing a good job? What do you think? I think you're doing a good job. That's all you need, really. It's just somebody above you, that you respect, going, yeah! Fucking A man, you're doing alright.

Just keep it up. Don't do anything dumb, alright? Just don't fucking That thing you did, don't do that again Because this that and the other thing or whatever it is.

TJ: and not from like 

Brian: No. 

TJ: for validation, but I guess in a sense it is, but we've, we've all known to people who will always go to the uncle, the captain, the senior guy, whomever, constantly searching for that outside validation where that senior firefighter has to be like, timeout dude, like, How do you think you did before you come to me, ask me these questions.

How do you think you're

Brian: Yeah, so here's a funny story. I was I helped my senior man. Uh, I was a lieutenant at the time It's a couple probably two three years ago. I went and helped him put in the floor He's a carpenter on the side and I was doing we're doing the thing i'm doing a good job like he's Obviously i've done some tool work before having my dad and stuff whatever but we got to a point and I was like You Yo, I feel like I'm just in the way he's like you need to get the fuck over yourself And I was like, yo, that's exactly what I needed

And that's maybe maybe that's you know, it's not always that direct kind of feedback that you you know That you need but it's just like hey, yeah No, you're doing a good job. Like that was his way of saying it because that's his personality, you know

TJ: Okay. So now we've covered about the strategy that, that like 30, 000 foot view, have that coach that's going to give you the outside perspective and on like a daily. basis is when it comes to your own feedback, your own self feedback and feedback to others is empower the other person to be vulnerable, to make their decisions and to basically take it or leave it.

And sometimes we have to have the conversation with ourselves like, okay, I feel like I just fucked up royally, but I know. Hey, self, you are in a bad spot. I'm not going to kick you while you're down. Let's just go get a snack. Let's drink some water. Let's chill for a bit. And then let's unpack whatever the fuck just went down.

And that applies to the fire service. And that applies to life because we can, we tend to look at life very critically given this line of work. Now that we've covered the strategy and the tactics, you, this is pretty A pretty recent journey of yours, so we can't 

Brian: What have I been 

doing 

TJ: you know, how has it

Brian: No, it was almost like Automatic it was almost like the next day I went to work. I was acting different. It was like two days two days later I was like, wow, thank goodness. I've been waiting act like this for months or years. You know, I mean, I was just like Oh, I'm fucking more direct than I was before.

I was like, oh, thank God cuz I'm a direct person I don't like to fall off. I think it's stupid. Um, it's like hey, yeah, let's not do that And I was like, look at me, fucking just speaking out of the fucking turn, you know what I mean? I was like, jeez, I was like, oh, uh, you know, in my mind, I was like, and then I recognized that I did it.

And I was like, fuck yeah. You know what I mean? Like, that's it. That's what, you know, like in, uh, Lord of the Rings where, um, King Theoden gets out of his funk and he's like, how are we going to get this guy, you know, how are we going to get the dog back in his fight? And Gandalf gives him the sword and he's like, waves it around.

And he's like. Let's do it. That's what it felt like. You know what I mean? I was like, yeah. And it was like

TJ: You're right.

Brian: We're back in the game, fellas. Let's go. So, it's not like I wasn't

We're 

so 

TJ: bad 

Brian: like I was out. It wasn't

like I was out. It just wasn't like 100 percent in.

TJ: Yeah, yeah, you didn't feel like you were in it now. Okay, this is this is a fun question. So Brian from, you know, We're, we're talking to Brian now, but let's say that Brian from five years from now comes back and visits you, what's he going to tell you happened after you were able to come up with these strategies and tactics to overcome that imposter syndrome and continue your growth

Brian: You will become You have become a man that other men look up to and respect. Because you are open and, I wouldn't say authentic, but like, you're vulnerable. Like, you relate to other people very well. You're vulnerable. Well spoken, you know, you don't just kind of sit there and take it. You do what needs to be done because it needs to be done and it's the right thing, not because it's the popular thing or whatever, so.

The kind of guy, if you were to look at the heroes of old, like I think I said this before, like your name will be written in stone and people will remember you. It's a good legacy to have. Like, think about that. What do you want your legacy to be? And make that shit happen. You know what I mean? It's kind of weird to

think about. Kinda got some chills.

TJ: Now, I dig it. I dig it. That's a perspective that I started trying to, to apply more is when, when I'm facing a tough decision, when I feel like I'm stuck pretending that I'm okay. Me in 10, 15 years comes back, me on my deathbed comes back and I can talk to him. And I think it's like Solomon's paradox. I think it's what it's called, but being able to speak to that person who already went through this. And be like, Hey, Hey man, what's up? Like, is this the right call? Is this, and with the understanding that it's not going to have, if I'm in the middle of making a decision, I am not going to have all of the second, third, fourth, fifth order ramifications figured out because that we're, we got to include time in that, but that person that comes back and be like, nah, dude, you make it.

Brian: Yeah. There's a

TJ: And that is.

Brian: I'll let you finish. Uh, there was a technique that I used a couple years ago. It's like, we were brought to this. Cemetery and they're like, all right write your eulogy for you today, right? and then You know read it to yourself and then like let you think on that for a little bit and then write the eulogy that you want to have right and then it's a Just doing that and be like if I die today, this is where i'm at You know what?

I mean? Like do I want that and then fucking become that person that is in the second one order here like become the person become the man that you want to be because That's what you want instead of like that's what people are pushing you to do.

TJ: Deep. I like that one.

Brian: I've done a lot of weird stuff Yeah

TJ: to talk about the ambience. That dude, I mean, if growth was easy,

Brian: do it.

TJ: like it wouldn't be worth it. And like it's, that's, I don't want to shit on people. But we we deal with folks, not not so much in the fire service. But we deal with folks who just go through

Brian: Mm hmm

TJ: and they coast.

Brian: one. 

TJ: because growing and

Brian: Yeah. Well, most people don't know what they don't know. So like They don't without it without listening to something like this or some of the stuff that you Put out like I would have never even thought of that So I was like that's why I reached out to you. I was like, yo, do you have one of these?

I want to learn more about it like because I just did the thing like no, it's like, okay, let's let's do this Maybe we can help somebody else like that's all i'm interested. You know, so

TJ: Yeah, and I think we will, because in a sense, this imposter syndrome that we are prone to struggle with sets us up for a path of tremendous growth that we wouldn't see otherwise. The, the

Brian: 100 percent like

TJ: The fire service, our personalities, the people that we are. Yes, this job and what we do and who we are can be, it can be draining.

It can be exhausting, but channeling the energies in that right direction towards growth and improvement and, you know, Being vulnerable with ourselves and, and having those tough conversations, I think is what makes firefighters so amazing because they, they have done the work and you can look at so many of them and be like, yeah, you're, you're good within.

And I would definitely 

Brian: for sure. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah It's interesting you use the word vulnerable because I don't necessarily like that word because it feels like a scared rabbit in a field waiting to get eaten. You know what I mean? I like the word relatable. Like any guy that I respect feels like when you say something to him, he tries to make it relatable to what you're going through.

And that feels more authentic from a male perspective because it's like, I can be vulnerable with my wife because she's my wife. I can't be vulnerable for you because you're a guy and you'll think I'm fucking weirdo. You know what I mean? Like, uh, That's

TJ: I mean, I already think 

Brian: But, uh, It doesn't bother me at all.

But like, it's more like the way this conversation is going, you're trying to relate to the things I'm saying. That's not necessarily being vulnerable. You're relating to me. To make it, to make more come out, you know what I mean? And that's the type of conversations we should fucking be having at the kitchen table.

Not the, I'm sad man, my dog died or whatever. Like, I need to cry. Did you do that at the firehouse? You're gonna get ostracized, right? So like, but if you go, dude man, I'm fucking like, I'm just not feeling good. Like, I got this thing going on. Like, it's fucking weird. And then they go, yeah, yeah. That happened to me a couple years ago, you know, it was this or just being, just having somebody else at the firehouse or at the kitchen table to be like, yeah, that happened to me.

You don't, one, you don't feel alone anymore. And two is you're like, you're more apt to open up to that person again. But if you say something like, hey, you know, like, you know, I'm 38 and I feel like I'm having a heart attack. But when I go to the doctor, everything's good. And they're like, yeah, that's weird.

Are you gonna open up again? No, you're not because you just got shot down by some macho dudes

TJ: It's so dude, you nailed it because being relatable when you open up makes a whole difference between continuing that conversation or it just completely derailing because it is, yeah, you show up and you're like, Hey, I'm not feeling well. And they're going to be like, Oh, here, here, buddy. Like it's okay.

Whereas if I say I'm like, man, like, I don't know, like vibes are off. I'm just. I don't know. There's something weird going on. I'm going to get, you know, 5, 000 different diagnoses from three different dudes. One's going to tell me that, you know, I'm going to die tomorrow. One's going to tell me to go play in traffic.

One's going to tell me that I should eat more of this. Less of that. A lot of it turns into just pure humor, which is sometimes what we need. But if we can look deep, there. Is always something to be gained from that because maybe now I'm looking at the guy who's telling me, Oh, yeah, you know, like when I had that happened and you know, I just thought about going and playing in traffic and I'm

Brian: yeah you good dude

TJ: Okay, like this kind of like brought my shields down.

But are you okay? Like what's happening? Well, then there's the guy who just like goes off on a different tangent and talks about his diet. I'm like, well, maybe I can try these different things. So it's all in that delivery. Just like what we talked about, giving feedback to somebody. You don't just come in and give them that shit sandwich if they're open to it.

might happen. And if they're not, nothing good's gonna happen. Same thing when you when you try to open up to the shift. It's just it's, we should write a book on interpersonal communication in the fire service, but not some ifs, the bullshit manual, but how to navigate these different layers because for as dense as we can be in the fire service at times, and how Infantile our minds can be, you know, we're giggling at farts and dick jokes and don't shit like that.

We can communicate on so many different levels at once that I think that's something to be celebrated and shared with people because that level you can look at somebody and they're. Making fun of you for going through a breakup, a divorce, whatever you're going through. But the way they are saying those jokes lets you know that they understand you, that they care, and they would do anything for you.

And that is something that you don't see anywhere else. So I don't know if it's gotta be the culture, it's gotta be the shared

Brian: probably the trauma. It's probably the

TJ: the environment. The trauma bonding.

Brian: because you know, like When you switch shifts, and you're like, you're on a solid crew and you switch shifts, or you go on overtime, and it's just a different vibe. You know what I mean? Cause they're not used to you. And, at least for me, it's weird cause it's like, oh, I'm an officer.

And it's completely different when I go on overtime, and they act completely different with me. And I was like, you guys must be used to different type of people. Like, I don't, I'm not gonna tell you what to do. I know, here's what I expect. You do whatever you're gonna do it. But like, and then they kind of like, their defenses go down, and they're just not used to that.

I'm just like, can we just have fun? We don't need to do this stuff.

TJ: Yeah. Yeah, legit. Parting thoughts? Do you have

Brian: Don't be so fucking hard on yourself. Like, uh, talk, you know, like, be relatable. Don't, don't, don't talk about yourself a hundred percent. Like, Hey, is that how that works for you? You know, maybe break it up in the conversations. Uh, like I went to therapists for a long time and they weren't fucking, they couldn't nail this down on me.

And maybe I just wasn't communicating effectively, you know what I mean? But I had to get, get a coach, get somebody to tell you like, Hey, uh, this might be what it is, you know what I mean? Like, and God bless Ethan Buck for fucking, you know, saying that shit. I wouldn't have. No one in the fire service had brought that to my attention.

A guy in health and fitness did, you know what I mean? But that's what good coaches do they fucking it's a holistic thing. It's not just like here's a fucking meal plan or Yeah, I do this workout. You know what I mean? And that's it Hey, look at everything. So and therapists are good too, but They obviously missed it.

I've been going therapy for years, seven plus years, you know what I mean? I'm just like, none of it cracked the surface. Cause I was worried about other stuff. So it was just like, this was just in the back of my head and it was always like, well, what am I talking about today? But you know, work through your stuff, man. It's your family deserves it. Your buddies deserve it. You know what I mean? The guys that work under you deserve it. People above you deserve it. So you can, you know, do the right thing. It's an amazing confidence booster, getting your shit together. You know what I mean?

Grow a mustache. You know, get some cool shirts.

Lift some, lift some weights, you know. Smoke cigars, drink some scotch. Fucking, fucking watch Tombstone. Like, those movies exist for a reason. And those are, you know, just to lift you up. It's a thumos. Have you ever heard of thumos? Like the fiery passion of men. It's like a, it's a Socrates and like Homer thing.

Like it's just like, you know, like the, that drive, like that dog. Fumos. Fiery fucking passion. And it's in every one of those amazing old male movies, you know, like, like Braveheart, Tombstone, Top Gun. They're like, that's, you're like, Yeah, I could I could do that you know what I mean like that energy to that thing like bring it That's how you get that dog back in you know what I mean fucking that's what I used to do when I was a kid I used to watch those fucking movies And it was like yeah, I want to fucking be that guy.

You know what I mean? I was

TJ: I do scream freedom at shift change when I get to go home, like Braveheart does. Because sometimes it does feel like somebody's ripping my 

Brian: to say is your head get severed after that Yeah,

TJ: Yeah, right. I mean, sometimes it feels like that. You know, running the same frequent flyer five times after 

Brian: Well, I mean that Think of it this way like he fought for his freedom. He fought for the the right to do whatever he wanted you know, I mean he paid the price the warrior price, you know that the the uh, Achilles price, you know, I mean like everybody loved him, but Achilles died at the end because of some small mistake, you know, I mean like

TJ: I feel like we need to have a weekly philosophers Like fire philosopher club meeting we should actually do it on a live

Brian: i'm actually in a book club i'm in a book club that we talk about those sorts of things

TJ: Oh, no shit. I like this.

Brian: Yeah. So like in that, in it, in that group too, like dudes were like, yeah, imposter syndrome, blah, blah, blah. And that was like a year ago that, you know, like you're talking about resources to look into like a group of men that are high performers that are like, just like you that are into the same shit.

You know what I mean? It could be a gun club, could be whatever, you know what I mean? Like, but, and then those people should, you know, be relatable. Instead of, you know, vulnerable, you know Like, you can get some weird groups that, you know, they're very feminine. Guys like us, we don't need those groups. We don't.

We need dudes that watch Tombstone and fuckin you know, uh, Lord of the Rings and shit like that. And Dune and, you know, Superman. You know, like, and talk about that shit, you know what I mean? And the philosophies behind all that. And, you know, Greek heroes or, you know, Uh, Vatican heroes, or, you know, Icelandic heroes, there's stuff like that, or Celtic heroes, or Native American heroes, you know, people that had thumos.

That had that fuckin fiery passion and did the thing that everybody else was afraid of, you know what I mean? And then, you know, that just lights a fire under you, being around those type of guys, cause they're, you know, They're 100 percent in and whatever they're doing, you know what I mean? And a hundred and you know Not all the time you can get that in the fire service in the kitchen because not everybody You might have one or two high performers and you feed off each other, but they're not going to be there every day You know what I mean?

Or you make it move to a different firehouse and then your whole team Things change, you know what I mean? And you're like, how do I get that dog back? You know, you fucking pick up that sword and you get to it. You know what I mean? So Yeah man, yeah.

TJ: And I feel like that's a perfect segue for us to talk about iron will and how you are a coach and you can help others figure out how to pick up their own swords.

Brian: Just give me a call or go to ironwill, ironwillp iron underscore will underscore pt on Instagram and Twitter and follow his stuff. Like he just he's been bullshit and uh he'll probably end up talking to me at one point. He's a good dude. Uh, he's a good dude.

TJ: I'll drop the

Brian: Cool.

TJ: link as well on the episode

Brian: Oh, that'll be, uh, yeah, that's fine. You can do that.

Those are,

TJ: keep you, keep you busy with the part time gig. And it's actually a perfect plug for the new feature on the podcast where you can Text us directly from your phone as you're listening. So us know what you've thought of this. I will share this with Brian. Like he will get that screenshot immediately as soon as it happens, regardless of hour of the day or night.

And he can attest to that because he's woken up to a couple of 

Brian: yeah, 

TJ: from me here and there.

Brian: So how does it all work? Do you just like, you download, uh, Apple and you can send a message? Is that how that works or iTunes or?

TJ: No, no, literally you. You tap the link where it says, send us a message and it opens up your text app with the phone number pre populated with a number on the text message body itself that makes sure it comes to our podcast and you just type whatever you want to type. Like everything is done for you.

It's like, you're thinking, Hey, I want to send a text to Brian and it just pops up and you say, Hey buddy, what's up send. And it shows up on the dashboard. I've had. People reach out and come up with new ideas. I had a gentleman who, and unless you say who you are, I have no idea. It just gives me the last four digits of the number and that's it.

So it is as anonymous as it can get. And this, this man, he, I mean, he signed it, but he's like, Hey dude, like I've. Been losing my fire. I feel like I'm losing my steam and hearing some of these people talk about their struggles and their triumphs has really reframed me in a way that I know I'm

Brian: and that's all. We're just sharing

experiences, right? We're not trying to, I'm not trying to be vulnerable and cry. It's like, yo, man, I had this thing and this is what I did to fix it. Maybe it'll work for you. Maybe it won't, you know what I mean? But try it out. See if it helps you. Yeah,

TJ: Cool buddy. Well, Brian, as always, I appreciate every second that we get to chat. I love picking your brain and thank you so much for reaching out to talk about this topic that. Is definitely going to resonate with people throughout the fire service 

Brian: As long as I help one person, right? So it could be, maybe it'll help my

brother. I don't get him on the podcast. So