063. Don't Let Your Ego Get In The Way [Part 1]

In this episode of the Keep The Promise Podcast, Joff Fierro returns to share his grueling journey to becoming a firefighter. From facing rejection in the hiring process to battling the toxic culture in firehouses, Joff opens up about the trials and tribulations he overcame. 

You will learn:

• insights into the importance of resilience.
• the harsh realities of the fire service interview process.
• actionable steps to improve your own chances of success. 

Joff also discusses the evolving definition of hard work and the need to adapt to the changing times to attract new generations to the fire service.

02:09 Fire Service Culture

02:58 The Journey to Becoming a Firefighter

04:58 Challenges and Setbacks

06:22 The Role of Mentorship

09:49 The Final Push and Success

18:30 Motivation and Personal Drive

24:22 Facing Rejection and Self-Realization

25:57 Understanding Hard Work

26:36 Advice for Overcoming Rejection

28:00 The Importance of Humility

29:27 Memorable Interview Experiences

32:32 Learning from Mistakes

36:30 The Hiring Process

42:09 Preparing for the Job

46:31 Adapting to Changing Definitions of Hard Work

Transcript

TJ: So my boy, my fellow meme, Lord shit. Poster. The man who answers my most unhinged messages at all hours of the night.

Jofff, welcome

Joff: No, dude, I'm here for it. Thanks for having me again, 

TJ: I appreciated you doing this. You are a guest on episodes, I think it was 40 and 41, where we talked

Inclusion when it comes to fire service fitness, and we went off on a couple tangents about the hiring process and how rookies get treated, which is what got the most traction on social media.

So we are here to really take a deep dive into those two topics because I want, I like your take on it. I like what you have said about in the past and I really want to tease out. So more information to, so our big two overarching themes, ladies and gentlemen, for today, as you're tuning in, we're gonna talk about the fire service hiring process and we are also going to talk about the culture of rookies or booters as our fellow brothers and sisters call 'em in the Phoenix Fire Department. So before we get started on that, for those who may just be tuning into whatever 50, some episode number this is gonna be, give us a little rundown about who you are, your life, where you are, and how you ended up there.

Joff: Um, so Jonathan, Jeff Fierro, for those of you that don't know me, um. One. Happy to be back. Thanks for having me again. Just a, just a heads up. Um, and, uh, yeah, dude, uh, been a member of the fire department for coming up on six years now. Um, green as it can, green as it can be, right. Um, 

TJ: nothing green in Phoenix, bro.

Joff: you say that, but the, uh, the 400 new firefighters that we have under tend to, I guess, beg to differ a little bit.

That dude, there's a, there's a lot of new people out there. We are a young department and I'm excited to see where it takes us, but uh, yeah, just a lot of green. We gotta get, we gotta get these people trained up. We gotta get 'em, you know, just, I don't even know the word for it. We just gotta get everybody under the same mindset.

TJ: Which I feel that you guys do pretty well. The, the, at least what I got from the last conversation we had, your culture is pretty strong and it's, it's rooted in a, in a solid foundation that that goes back many, many years. And I mean, like, there's been, I I wanna say greats coming outta Phoenix. There's been very important figures coming outta Phoenix.

Love 'em or hate him, uh, Bruno and the whole Blue Card thing, which

big hater of Blue Card, but that's because it's, it's not a one size fits all approach. But

Joff: mean, it works for 

us. 

TJ: say it, it works for you guys that, that we tried it a couple times and you know, you're having a ladder truck, pull a line and go do fire attack and you're like, what the, I'm so confused as to what the hell's

Joff: Yeah, I don't think, I don't think that

TJ: Yeah. No, like I'm, I'm kind of, I'm, I'm kind of lost, but, um, okay. So I, dude, I derailed you immediately. So you're an, you're an engineer now, huh?

Joff: no, I am, I, uh, I've been driving, well, I've been driving for about two years now. Uh, officially made for a year. I officially made for six months. Um, but I got my, uh, my qualified engineer certification right before that, and, uh, just started getting all that time on the road under my belt, started pumping fires and pulling hand lines and helping, helping where I can.

Um, but yeah, dude, I'm absolutely loving the engineer life. Not because of all the engineer things that come with it, but dude, I, uh, I just, I love driving. I love the, uh, I, I love figuring out what's wrong with my truck when I show up for shift in the morning and, uh, and then literally wandering through people's houses, looking at their knickknacks while everyone 

else does the patient assessment. 

TJ: Yeah, that was my favorite. There were times that, um, I would, God, I remember one time I was freezing cold out. It was like two in the morning we had been gotten beat. I'm like, you know what? Call me if you need me. I'm gonna hear, sit here by the engine and uh, take a nap if you guys need anything.

And I woke up when the door's closed, 

so like, I am the worst fucking guy. 'cause I didn't even help the crew, but whatever. It was a nursing home. So are you.

Joff: dude, it was. Sorry, 

go 

TJ: no, no. You go.

Joff: Uh, when I, when I had first, uh, started driving, um, I was roving around for about a year, I wanna say a year and a half before I just got my spot. Um, and I, uh, you know, I, I'm one of those guys that I, I want to have like, hands on the patient. I want to be part of the assessment. I wanna be doing something.

Give me the sugar kit, give me like, gimme the IV kit. I'll get that set up. I don't care what it is. I'll press the freaking blood pressure monitor buttons as many times as you need me to do. Just gimme a job. Let me do something. I don't want to feel useless. So when I started, I started rubbing around, um, a lot of the captains out there, you know, the, the drivers, the, the engineers are.

They're the watchmen, they're the guys that listen to the radio. They stand back, they go get the rescue or the ambo when needed. Um, and like, it took me a couple months to get used to that because some of the guys, like some of the captains I was working with were like, yo, like don't touch a patient, dude.

Like, listen to the radio. You're the, you're that guy now. And I'm like, I, I, that doesn't, I I, that, that doesn't compute. I need to help. And they're like, no, no, no, no. Like let, let the medics work. Let the, the guys that need to work work you. You're supposed to be doing this thing. And then every once in a while, some guys will look at you where and be like, why aren't you helping?

And I'm like, oh shit. Okay, hold on. Um, but yeah, dude, I just, a different, different world.

TJ: totally different world. I found myself being the, the gopher just sitting, like if they were working a patient upstairs, I'd be like in the middle of the stairs just listening to see what they needed. And if I caught whiff, I'm like, okay, I heard something about a reeves or I heard something about like, before anybody could turn around, I'd be bolting out the door to try to grab the shit that they needed.

But yeah, it's,

Joff: Yeah, 

TJ: it's a whole different mindset and um, I feel the pain of trying to figure out on a daily, what the hell is wrong with your unit, depending on, on who you relieve.

Joff: Yeah.

TJ: are you, what, what shift are you again? Are you, don't tell me you're

Joff: B 

TJ: dammit. 

Joff: shifter through and through dude, through and through 

TJ: Ugh. I,

Joff: dude raised by the c shifters body of an a shifter mind of a b shifter. That's how it works.

TJ: I mean, the way that you act, I can see why you're raced by the C shifters that you,

Joff: Oh,

TJ: so funny how across every culture, every department c shift is just unhinged.

Joff: Yeah. That's, that's one way of putting it.

TJ: God, when I was in special operations, those guys would 

do the most random ass shit. And I would walk in at like, you know, four in the morning to try to get a workout in.

And there were a couple times that like every, 'cause we were at the hazmat station as well, every meter, not just like the regular air monitor, but like every single cam Imeter was going off. And I remember I opened the door, I'm like, am I gonna walk into a shiff full of dead people? Like, why are all these things

Joff: Oh no,

TJ: And when they finally woke up and we talked, they're like, yeah, we accidentally made chlorine. And uh, kind of like over range, a few of the meters. I'm like, accidentally, last week you accidentally made shake and bake meth and blew yourselves up. What the fuck? I wanna transfer to you guys.

Joff: dude. That's awesome. I'm glad they're 

okay. dude.

TJ: Those, those, I mean, they're absolute lunatics, but they can be because they know what they're doing. So you cannot become a crazy sea shifter making chlorine and shaken bake meth at the special up station without first getting hired. And, uh, 

that's the journey that we wanna talk about. So 

you, you touched on it before on the previous episode, but walk through that journey again.

Tell me your story of what it took you to get hired, how long it took you, because you are one of those who faced a couple setbacks even though you were checking every box and you just didn't stop. Yeah.

Joff: Yeah, yeah. Um, five years to get hired, uh, you know, bopped around from, from crew to crew. Trying to figure out, well, was told to go into a lot, but listening to my mentors started to deal. And like I said, uh, started doing ridealongs, um, with my, my mentor. And, uh, one day we go to, I think, I believe it was Wells Fargo.

And, uh, we were looking at FDC connections on the building and my mentor is like, do you know what this is? No, it's cool though. I'm like, I'm happy to be here. Like, let's go hike the stairs and. He's like, yeah, you, you need to go to a firefighter one and two program, which is our, uh, academy before the academy where you go to learn things.

It's not required. Um, some smaller cities in Arizona, and I think a couple other states kind of require that because it's basically, um, you getting certified as a, a firefighter in the state of Arizona. So went and did that. That kicked my butt. I got to learn what, you know, firefighter fitness kind of really looked like.

Um, and I remember dude, like one of the first nights, one of the, no, no, no. One of the first weeks after, you know, it's three days a week. Tuesdays, Tuesday nights, Thursday nights, and all day Saturday. And, uh, the, we do the occasional workout I think on like Wednesdays. Um, and with, with Phoenix, you know, that's kind of like a, it can be a pipeline towards, you know, becoming a firefighter.

'cause we have a lot of firefighters down there doing those. Um. Like being proctors for those tests and whatnot. So they see you work down there working hard, you start riding along in Phoenix and you know, they make the connection and all of a sudden like, Hey, yeah, this guy's good. He works out, he does his job, keeps his mouth shut.

That sort of deal. He'll do good in the interview interviews. Um, one of the first weeks after we're, we're doing like firefighter workouts and I'm getting in turnouts for the first time. Met my wife and I go to dinner. She was my, uh, girlfriend, fiance, somewhere around that, that point. And I'm like, this is really hard.

She's like, dude, you better buck the fuck up 'cause like if you wanna do this, like that's not gonna work. And I was like, God damn, you're right. Um, my wife came from a, from a world of tough love, like, suck it up buttercup, like you're gonna be okay. Sort of deal. And I came from, I. Hey, it's okay if you quit softball.

Hey, it's okay if you quit soccer and basketball. Um, we'll figure out the next thing for you. And don't get me wrong, loved my mom. Let, still love my mom. Uh, very coddled, very like, well, you don't like this, so let's figure this out and let's figure this out and let's, let's figure this out. And when you get to the fire service, you learn very quickly that they're like, suck it up buttercup.

You better figure it the fuck out real quick. And my wife knew that because she was raised by her dad. And dude, like, let me tell you, you, you either learn to adapt and you say, okay, this is how this works. I'm going to do this. Or you don't, and it's gonna be a world of hurt until you either give up or finally get hired.

And then nobody really likes you very much because you're the guy who's always, or the guy or girl who's always like, well, this is hard. How do I get this done? And everyone's like, I don't fucking know. Figure it out. You know what I mean?

TJ: So you started at

Joff: So,

TJ: Pre 

Academy Academy 

No, go ahead. 

Joff: No, no. That, yeah, that was it. Uh, the fire one and two, um, kinda went from there, took me three years after the one and two, um, to figure out, to really, really figure out like the culture and the interview style that Phoenix wants.

Um, and it, you know, it's, it was just life lesson after life lesson. Um, my first go around, I tested for Phoenix three times. And then multiple other cities, which were all hilarious stories. Um, but my first go around with Phoenix, you know, uh, there's two, there's two interviews. The, uh, the captain's interview and the chief's interview.

And I passed. I got onto my second interview every time I, I tested, um, and I was told that I had a great first round interview. But like those, those first two second round interviews, my first one, dude, I, I would've done better if I had just thrown up on the desk in front of the chiefs and just left like I talked in circles.

I was nervous. I couldn't remember what I wanted to say. I had never done an interview like that, and I thought that I basically had to reinvent the wheel to get to, to tell them what they wanted to hear, not the case. My second time, going through my second round interview, um, the chief that was on that board, that was somebody who helped me significantly throughout this, uh, this process because it was the biggest kick in the pants I'd ever gotten.

Looking back on it. Um, I came off too cocky. I came off too confident and I didn't know what that meant. I was like, well, I couldn't talk last time. And this time I guess I talked too much. Like I said, too many things. And it came off as like a, I don't know, I was too cocky. And, uh, I went to go see, uh, that chief and she was like, yeah, that was the worst interview I've ever heard.

And I remember sitting in her office, dude, and I was like, oh, uh uh, okay. Like, what? Yeah. She goes, yeah, you like, you need to figure it the fuck out. And I was like, oh, okay. And, you know, took that for what it was worth and kept working, kept working, kept working. And my third round, dude, I remember my, my third, second round interview with Phoenix.

I remember thinking like I wasn't. It completely at the point it, this was five years in mind you, I wasn't completely at the point where I was like, this is the last one. This is it. I hadn't given up because I knew in my mind, in my heart that I was, I was gonna come back. I, this is what I wanted to do. It was there, but I was, I was still like, fuck, what did I do wrong?

And it took getting sent to another mentor and figuring out how that interview clicks with my style of interviewing where I went and I was relaxed and I talked and I said how badly I wanted to be here and how hard I was gonna work for it and how hard I had worked for it and all the other things that Phoenix wants to hear in their interview.

Um, and I got that fucking call, dude. And you'll never forget that day. You'll never, ever, dude. I get goosebumps still thinking about it. 'cause I was at my job, um, where I was in Oregon Transportation, I. Director for, not director I manager or something like that. I can't remember the title, but I'm sitting there typing in a flight for these surgeons to go pick up a heart in California.

And Chief all calls me and he goes, Hey, is this Jonathan Fierro? And I'm like, you're fucking right. It is dude. Like, yeah. Like, yes sir. And dude, I, oh my God. Like just that. He goes, Hey, two things. Don't get in trouble. Don't quit your job. And I, I think there was like a, you know, don't, don't be a problem or something like that.

And I was like, done easy. Nothing I could do right now would ever, would ever screw this up. And it's like one of those things I know I didn't have a background. I know I didn't have anything that was gonna keep me health wise. And I was like, this is it. I did it dude. And I, my first person I called my, my wife and my father-in-law amongst other people.

Had been with me through this entire, this entire process. Right. I called my mi my middle brother first before anybody else. And I don't know why. I just remember 'cause he had like, he, he would always stuck with me through it. Like, you'll get it dude. You'll get it, you'll get it. And I was like, dude, I like, I basically, I cried.

I was like, dude, I got it. I fucking got it. And he was like, hell yeah dude. And then I called my wife and then I called Tim my father-in-law who already knew he was, he was in the know and yeah. And then I'm, now, I'm here six years later.

TJ: Hell yeah, dude.

Joff: Yeah.

TJ: What kept you motivated? Because it's so easy to reach that point, like you mentioned, to be coddled and say, fuck it. It's not for me. It's, it's the easy path, right? It takes a lot of work to get to the second round interview, and for you to have to go through those multiple times. Was there, know, were, were you shouting affirmations in the mirror about how you were gonna get hired?

Were you 

journaling or was it this just like, I'm on this path, I'm not gonna stop until I get there. Like how did you keep yourself on that grind?

Joff: So I, I truly believe that having something to work for is, is doing it for yourself is one thing, right? Like I, I, in my, in my heart of hearts, I wanted to become a firefighter. I knew that this was the field that I needed to be in because I cannot sit at a desk. I can't do math. I can't build rockets. I can't fucking have people scream at me over the phone while I'm trying to sell them, you know, whatever it is at a call center, I can't do it.

I am a person who needs to be out and about working with their hands, doing dirty work, working hard, and coming home, and then doing it the next, every third day for the rest of my fucking life. That kept me going. But before I met my wife, dude, she likes to say this and I, people, she and I have this lingo that a lot of people don't understand, but fucking, she, she likes to go, she likes to say in front of people.

She goes, you were a fucking loser before you met me. And I'm like, that's mean. But she's not wrong. Like she's not wrong. I didn't, I didn't have any purpose. I didn't have any direction. I didn't have anybody to work for. And I, I know how that sounds. I wasn't working for my, my girlfriend, my fiance, my wife.

I was working towards building a better future to where I could give something to this relationship. My wife, um, you know, bless her freaking parents. 'cause they're the coolest parents on earth then. Awesome. In-laws. They, they allowed her to stay at home while she went through college. And like she, as long as she had a job, like a little side job working at Target or doing whatever they were gonna help her pay for, you know, her car and her rent while she worked to get a great job and a great education, um, didn't have that opportunity.

You know what I mean? So when I'm 19, I leave home, I'm like, Hey, I gotta figure it the fuck out. So I go from job to job to job, trying to figure out where I'm going, what I want to do, and then you meet somebody who gives everything and sacrifices everything for you. And dude, all I've gotta tell you is that when they give, when they go all in on you, you better make sure they fucking win.

You know what I mean? And that, that's to me is that was, that was my, my goal, my end goal was to be like, I did this so that you and I can be. Like, we can live the life that we want, um, because I want to be able to provide for you. I want to be able to provide for our, myself and our, our life and so on and so forth.

But that she was, she was my driving force. Um, I know it's, it's crazy 'cause a lot of people, I feel like, and this isn't, there's nothing wrong with this. A lot of, a lot of the people that get on here are like, I became a firefighter for me and I did, I became a firefighter for me as well. But there were other factors there.

I needed to prove to myself that I was capable of doing this. I needed to prove to my wife that I was capable of doing this and not giving up like I had on everything else in my life. Because it was, I was always told that, Hey, it's gonna be okay. We'll figure it out the next step. We'll figure it out with this and that.

And the other thing, dude, that's how you create people who are just like. Well, this isn't working. So now what do I do? Somebody needs to give me this next opportunity. Nobody needs to give you shit. Nobody owes you a fucking thing. You have to go out and earn it like everyone else on this earth. And I just, that, that's just resonates so deeply with me after, you know, you know, hindsight's 2020, but like looking back on all that stuff, dude, it's like, fuck.

Like what a, what a process. It's crazy.

TJ: Yeah, I think that's the best way to describe it. Absolutely crazy. And I

Joff: Yeah. 

TJ: I, I guess we can call it an external motivator with your wife being that person, but having had a similar life where I could do the same thing. I'm like, oh, I don't feel like doing this. And my parents were like, okay, it's fine.

In a very fucked up way. You let yourself down so many times by doing those things that it takes that outside force to kind of smack you around a couple times and be like, Hey, you need to figure it out. And then when you finally click and you say, you know what, maybe I've let myself down in the past, but for this one person today, I'm going to show up and I'm gonna give it my all those, those, 

are life changing people.

Joff: dude. And, uh, I think one of the harder parts was like getting told no on that second go round and having to go and tell my, my loved ones. 'cause they all know, they all know that you're trying to get hired and go through the process so everyone's all excited and like, Hey, you're gonna get it. You're gonna get it.

And you're like, sorry guys. Another year and a half. I gotta wait till the next process.

TJ: did you handle that?

Joff: Not, I mean, the first time I, I didn't handle it well 'cause I was like, well fuck, what did I do wrong? And you know, like that whole like woe is me mentality for a little bit and then. You start riding along mower and you start figuring out, and your wife gets disappointed in you, and your father-in-law gives you a fucking earful, and your brother's like, what the fuck are you doing?

Like, what are you doing wrong? I don't know. I don't, I don't know, dude, I don't know what I'm doing wrong. And then you go, oh, I'm the problem. My mindset is the problem. My, my whole view on how this works is the problem. I'm not working hard enough. I thought I was working hard enough because of how I was raised and what I was given and all the things that were just handed to me over and over and over again until I just figured it out.

But like, dude, it's, it literally takes so much deep diving into yourself. This process, just like, if, don't get me wrong. There's, there's the people that get hired first try because they, they, they fucking know Yes, good. They knew. You guys knew how to do it and how to, what to say and how to work the first try.

If I could have done that, I would've been ecstatic. But I needed these, I needed this life lesson. This was like my, this was my lore that I needed, you know, like,

TJ: Your origin story,

Joff: yeah, I needed this self-growth. Yeah, absolutely.

TJ: On the topic of hard work and not knowing what it is, because I don't feel that most of us do. And this is coming from, again, same, same thought process that you had. Oh, I know what hard work is like I've done it before, you know, and you're switching out a ladder truck at two in the morning in 20

degree weather because the thing broke down and there is nothing but you and the work ahead of you and moving all that shit because you gotta get back in service.

Or you know, it's for you guys a thousand degrees out in the summer and you gotta go, you gotta go to a fire and then you gotta clean up everything and then get ready for the other one. So somebody who's going through the same process as you are, somebody who's facing those same rejections with the lens of hard work, what advice do you have for them?

Joff: So don't let your ego get in the way. Rejection only works if you're willing to accept what these people are telling you. You know what I mean? Like, because I could have taken, Hey, this is the worst interview I've ever heard and been like, uh, nuh, that was a really good fucking interview. I don't know, I don't even know what you're talking about.

Person with 20 years on, you know what I mean? Like, that's not how life works. Like yeah, there's bad rejection out there, but like if it's only if, if people are only trying to help you, you need to listen with both ears. Not in one ear, out the other. And that's what it, that's kind of what I was doing in that first go around.

Like, I was like, no, like my story worked, like I did what I was supposed to do. And then you try that the second time and they're like, Hey, that, that didn't work the first time. You fucking idiot. Like that, that was bad. That was worse actually. And you go, ah, shoot. And then you go, okay, I'm doing something wrong.

I need to get in the mindset that they need me to be in, that I need to be in so that I can be here and doing the my dream job. So ego, ego is a huge thing here. Like, don't let it get in your way. It doesn't exist in this process. It, it shouldn't exist in this process. Yeah. If there's people out there that are trying to like, you know, keep you from this job, I'm, I don't think that's an actual thing.

Like, but like, you know what I mean? But. Dude, like, listen, listen with both ears, be a sponge for all the information. Find your story and how it works for you, how it works for the fire department, and how you plan to make that work for the next 25 years of your career. Are you gonna be a good person and are you gonna be a good employee?

Can we trust you? That's it. That's what you need to figure out, and that's how you have to, you know, give back this information. I'm this person, this is how I plan to be this person on the department. This is how I plan to do this and be this person for the next 25 years. And they're like, cool. You figured it out.

Congratulations. And then fucking streamers, dude. And everybody's happy. And there's balloons. There's a cake, dude. People are popping outta cakes. It's wild.

TJ: Are they naked popping outta cakes? Was it Mason coming out of a cake? 

Is that 

Joff: No, there's HR people in that room. They can't have naked people.

TJ: Or Mason.

Joff: Yeah,

Yeah, 

TJ: So, okay, on on that, on that cocky interview, what exactly did you say? How, 

how did it come across? Because it's easy for

Joff: I don't know

TJ: of us. Okay, so what you then, how'd you nail the third one? Because my thought process is you would go back and say, these are all the things that I said. Let me look at it through the lens of the Phoenix Fire Department and say, was it right, was it wrong?

What did they expect? What did they not expect? Or like what is it that you bomb? Because that's the part that I'm curious. Most of us can easily bomb an interview like you did on the first go around where you're just kind of like meek and you're shy and you're talking in circles and you get nervous, you know, palms are sweaty, mom's spaghetti, the whole nine yards.

Joff: all of

TJ: And for you to basically swing that pendulum the complete opposite way, I'm so curious as to what went down. Like did you come in and like take the chief's papers off the desk and like sub motherfucker hire me?

Joff: No, I don't, I don't think it was that, like, at least I didn't see it that way. Like the people across the table from me could have seen completely different, you know what I mean? And that's, that's how we try to like these, the the guys that show up, the guys and girls that show up to our, our stations now that, you know, go on Ridealongs and wanna work with us, and they say, Hey, I wanna be a firefighter someday.

We go, Hey, you, you need to figure out how to say things in a very neutral way because you don't know who you're sitting across the table from that day, what mood they're in, if they had a good lunch, if they slept well the night before, if they believe in God or not. Like that sort of deal, you know what I mean?

So like you can walk in there and be like, Hey, I, I'm J and I wanna be a Phoenix firefighter and here's all the reasons why. And they can be like. Did you hear that cocky motherfucker? And everyone's like, yeah, I heard it too. Fuck him. You know what I mean? So it's, I'm sure that's not how it went out. I'm sure that I went in there and I, I I smirked too many times or I said it in a certain way 'cause I didn't hear my tone very well.

Like, and no, absolutely not. What? It's the guy who can't read his tone in his facial expressions. 98% of the fucking time. That's why I probably pissed so many people off. Um, dude, I I probably, I probably just came in there too hot and I left and I, I shook everyone's hand and I smiled and I remembered my closing statement 'cause it was upstairs in the, uh, in the, at the training academy.

And I had heard something, um, while I was doing my interview work, uh, that I utilized while I was in my second round interview. 'cause they always ask you to give a closing statement. Do you have anything left to say? If you have time? Um, and. I turned around and I was like, Hey, that's where I want to be right now.

I want to be out there showing you guys that I can do this job and I want to be doing the hard work and working with, you know, the best crew that I can. And I just, I appreciate your guys' time and you being here, and I hope to hear, I hope to get a call from you. And then you get the response that you're like, that was fucking awful.

And I'm like, shit, what did, what did I do? What did I do wrong? And then you learn. And obviously that person who gave me that advice wasn't just gonna tell me I was terrible. She gave me all the reasons why it was terrible, including the cocky part. And I went, noted. Okay, here we go. I'll see you next time.

TJ: That's a spirit. That's a spirit. And it's funny that you mention those factors affecting your interviewers because most of us go in there thinking, Hey, they're gonna be ready to listen to all my stuff. And super excited to be there. We got the chance to do a lot of interviews. It was a period where you could actually pick up overtime helping interview people.

And 

it was exhausting 'cause you'd be there for eight hours listening to the same rehearsed story. Like if I hear one more person say, I just want to help my community, I'm gonna jump out of a window because like, gimme something better. Like you mentioned before, gimme creativity. Give me insanity. Give me.

Give me some sort of soul, but also, you know, you don't know how they're feeling. There was one time that I'm sitting there for eight hours, lethally hung over because the day before all finished interviews and we went across the street to our favorite bar pub dog and just got completely obliterated crash to somebody's house nearby.

You know, got the uniforms ironed up and everything, and then showed up to the interview the following day, still wreaking of maker's marking beer and being like, dude, just like, 

tell me you're not gonna slit my throat in my sleep and that you're actually gonna work hard in the academy and I'll fucking hire you like Jesus Christ.

Joff: are you gonna be an okay guy? Yeah. All 

right. 

Cool. be like? And we, dude, we had a couple that were phenomenal in awful ways and phenomenal in great ways like this. A couple people like admitted to crimes. Just like openly talked about, like

Holy shit.

TJ: to each other. Like, um, should we like call the cops and have 'em a standby, like on their way out?

Um, some dude basically said somebody at his previous job pissed him off, so he got him fired and he really enjoyed that. We're like, sweet Jesus. Like his dude, can you, 

can you please walk away? And then there's one that's always gonna stick in my mind. She didn't take the job because I'm sure she went on to do incredible things.

Like her resume read, like the who's who of just hard work. Like, like everything that, that you, you're, you're underdog story from like a poor family, worked her ass off, went to school, all that stuff. But the one stuff that stuck with me, the one story is how she accidentally because of a process issue that she fucked up.

She got another employee terminated. And when she realized like.

Joff: Hmm.

TJ: Oh, that was my fault. Literally advocated for that terminated employee, went to her boss and said, Hey, listen, this was me. This is how the process led to this employee making that mistake for which you shit can them, this is how we need to change the process.

Can we bring that person back? And they did. And like the fact that somebody was able to say,

Joff: Uh oh.

TJ: was my fault. I'm ready to take the fall. Pretty much set her apart immediately.

Joff: Oh, that's one. Awesome. But also, you just broke up a little bit.

TJ: Did you hear everything

Joff: paused for a second. No, I did. I'm pretty sure I heard everything. You just paused. Um,

TJ: are clogged between, between here and Phoenix.

Joff: yeah, I mean, what a, what a great way to say, Hey, I, I've dealt with adversity before and I was the problem and I admitted to it and tried to get that person to come back. Like, that's a great story. Which is what that try to tell people when they're going through their process. It's like, if you, firefighters are so fucking dumb.

You know what I mean? Like there's, there is so many smart people on this job, but like firefighters are like, oh, good story. Like good story. This is a good story. And like. You can listen to that because like you said, dude, you're sitting there for eight hours and get, don't, don't get me wrong, I haven't been a part of the, the interview hiring process on the side of, you know, actually listening to, um, recruits and whatnot.

Um, love to do that someday. It's kind of a, a, a steep process to get to that point. 'cause you know, the people with lots seniority, lots seniority, a lot of good dudes and, and gals trying to get, uh, good people hired though. Um, but they're people, they're sitting there for eight hours a day listening to the same exact story and person just in a different outfit saying, I have my EMT and I have my fire one and two.

And I went on a ride along once and I saw a guy get his blood sugar taken. And that's how I knew I wanted to be a firefighter. Thank you. And like. You, you have to have something different. You know what I mean? To get, to like, to make people be like, Hey, do you remember the guy who had the story about how his grandmother passed away and the, the fire department came to try and save her and it didn't work out, but like at that current point in time in his life, he needed to have some sort of like, divine intervention, and that's why he wanted to become a firefighter.

And people, they're like, oh yeah, I remember that story. I remember, yeah, yeah, yeah. That guy needs to move on to the next, the next round, but see if he can fucking pull it out for the next round. You know what I mean? But like the, the hiring process is just, it's so wild, dude. Like you either get it or you don't.

TJ: And I think the more times that you do it, just like you've shown, the more you're gonna be able to get bits and pieces on how to get it. 

Because again, some of us got lucky on the first try, right? The, the first try Fridays and,

Joff: First try Fridays, baby.

TJ: and that's fine, but life doesn't work that way. So sometimes you just get absolutely lucky.

But if you want to be good at something, you have to do it so many times that you almost become just, just bored of it, right? How do, how do the greats become great? They do something so many times that to them it's muscle memory or it's just another routine, be it professional athletes, be it like the good firefighters.

She's like, well, that motherfucker pulled that line and it was the most like, beautiful choreography of everything. And he's like, I don't remember what I did. I just, you know, the fire pulled the line, got their fires out, and you're like. You've done this at time or 500

Joff: Yeah, 

yeah. And dude, don't forget, you can still do this a thousand times and still get the same result because what's the definition of an of insanity? Doing something the exact same way over and over again expecting a different result. So if you're not willing to change something about what you're doing wrong, you are going to keep getting the same result.

You're not gonna get hired. What a fucking concept.

TJ: And you know what I, oh god, I hesitate to even bring this up 'cause you and I have talked about it. There's a guy who always jumps into the comments on especially your real about getting hired Ladder life, I think, I think he's outta South 

Florida. I think I get the vibe that he's outta South Florida or he mentioned it, or I crept on him.

I don't remember. Anyway, but my man is in the comments slinging. I don't wanna say hate, but he is not popular. Now some things I do agree with, but like he pretty much in much more colorful language puts it the way that he put it. If you are trying 1000 times and you're not getting the results, maybe it's not the system, and maybe you need somebody 

like ladder life or maybe you need somebody like your wife or your father-in-law to be like, Hey, fuck head. How many data points have you taken by doing the same thing? Why don't you change a couple of things? Again, not shitting on people, because some of us got ridiculously lucky on the first go around, but when we go through

Joff: See, I don't think it's luck. I don't think it's luck. And I, I don't get me wrong, I'm sure that there's a handful of people out there across the United States that have gotten lucky a few times. You know what I mean? But like, I fucking hate that word. I like, yes, the stars aligned for you that day. Right?

But did you do your due diligence? Yeah. Did you do your due diligence? Did you prepare for the job? Were you physically fit and ready? And did you have everything? All your ducks in a line to say, Hey, this is who I am. Hire me. That's not fucking luck. That's, I did what I needed to do. I listened right the first time and they go, Hey, this guy gets it.

He did it. Good job. First try high five. Like that's a couple of the dudes in my academy were like, yeah, dude, you probably, you probably hate me. I, I got hired first try and I like, you know, I tell people, I'm like, it took me five years. I'm like, I, why would I hate you? You figured it out. You did a good job.

Like there's no luck i's only hard work. I don't know. That's just me. I apologize for interrupting you.

TJ: no, it's fine. It's, and, and that leads us to the next question because we can sit here and talk about luck or preparedness, but we need some, something, some actionable steps to get there. So what, what do you have for those people who are struggling who might be on their fifth, sixth, seventh, or however many attempts, you know, the people who are catching shit from ladder life, um, what actionable steps do you give them?

If you were to say like, maybe five things to get these things, like you said, like do, maybe the stars are aligned, but maybe you did a couple of things. Walk me through, through those actionable steps to get hired.

Joff: Oh man, that's so hard. 'cause I mean, it's, it's not, and that's kind of one of these things that I wanted to talk to you about with this podcast specifically because

everybody has a different, a different area from where they come from, from life, right? So what's hard work to somebody else could be seen as, you know, a fucking walk in the park for people who have been through the ringer in their lives and vice versa. And being, being prepared for this job. Everybody talks about the standard, right?

The standard that we, we, we placate to on a day-to-day basis. And to those people that spell well, the standard, the standard. I say, what's the fucking standard dude? What is it? Where is the standard written down? What is the actual, the line in the sand? And if you meet that criteria, get, then you're, you're there.

You know what I mean? Like, you knew how to, you knew how to interview. You're physically and mentally prepared for this job, and you're ready to work for the next year. And a year and a half you work your butt off as a probie or a booter and you know, then be a, a firefighter after you graduate probation, the end, you did it.

And I, I think a lot of people get caught up in that mindset of like, well, the standard. And it's like, I, I get that. I, I am, I'm right there with you, brother, sister, the standard. Yes, absolutely. What is it? So with, with that being said, make sure you are physically and mentally prepared for this job. It is.

This is not an easy job. And like I, I get what I, it's funny because I, going back and listening to the podcast that we did last time, a lot of the things that, you know, specifically I said could come off as like, yeah, we're trying to placate to these people that aren't ready for the job. And that's not the case.

It's, Hey, we see that you're not ready. Let's get you ready and then let's get you on the department that you want. Let's get you tuned up in that interview so that you sound rehearsed. That you, I'm sorry that you don't sound like a robot, that you sound ready to go in that interview. So physically and mental, mentally prepared, going on Ridealongs, practicing your fucking interview.

If you go into this interview and you don't know how to interview or you don't know what that city wants you to say, because one, you've never done a ride-along because you don't know the culture, you don't know the way that these people work, like that's your own fault. So start going on ride-alongs. If you don't know how the fire department works, maybe go take a firefighter one and two program.

Maybe that's gonna get you put in the right direction. You're gonna start learning the terms for things, the slang for things like you're gonna start learning how the department works and how they pull lines and what they call fire hydrants and this, that, and the other thing. Do everything that you can to get yourself.

In this mindset to I'm going to do one of the hardest, best jobs on the world in, in the world and understand that this, the job's not meant for everybody. You know what I mean? We had a conversation like this the other day, and I get so fucking sidetracked. I'm sorry.

TJ: I love it.

Joff: We had a conversation like this the other day on the podcast where I was talking about how I've been, you know, having the conversation with people recently about how, you know, the kids today don't wanna work.

They don't want to blah, blah, blah, this, that, and the other thing. Nobody knows what hard working is anymore. And I go, there's a different definition of what hard work is, and it's a, this people think that they can pick this phone up and become a superstar overnight. Our, the chil children are seeing that.

Teenagers are seeing that, and young adults are seeing that because they grew up in this technology age where. You, you can become a streamer playing video games and make millions of dollars doing it. So it's a different definition of what hard work is. And Chris, who's the, uh, co-host on the podcast went well, yeah, but there's a significant amount of life lessons that you can't learn on this.

And I said, yes. And that's the parent's problem. That is the parent's issue where they go, Hey, we need to teach you all of these things and hopefully point you in the right direction. And don't get me wrong, I don't have kids. I don't know how hard that is. I don't, I don't give them iPad time. But like, dude, hard work is just a, it is just, there's a different definition of it now, and it's up to us to help these people learn what that is.

Because if we're gonna keep getting these Gen Z people that are gonna be, uh, like, that are gonna be trying to get hired. They need to understand what this job is truly about. And like when the fir, when the whole like departments started getting on Instagram and TikTok and you know, Facebook and we're like, Hey, like come work for us.

You know, like the fucking doing the, the dances and stuff. And everyone's like, oh my God, that's so cringey. They're, they're trying to get to the mindset of these different age groups. We need to figure out some way to make this job look interesting to Gen Z and Gen Alpha. And Gen Beta. Like, what a name.

Um, like we, we have to figure that out, you know what I mean? And we have to teach them what hard work is and what this job is about. Otherwise, the culture is gone. The department's gonna be a completely different thing in the next 20 years.