064. The Job's Not Meant For Everyone [Part 2]

In this second installment of our conversation with Joff Fierro, we cover insights on resilience in the hiring process, debunk toxic firehouse culture, and provide actionable steps for aspiring and current firefighters. 

You will learn:

• the real meaning of 'the standard'
• the importance of inclusivity and fitness
• and building a positive culture for rookies. 

Additionally, Joff discusses the evolving definitions of hard work and adaptability in modern firefighting, along with tips on bridging generational gaps within the department.

02:06 Actionable Steps for Aspiring Firefighters

04:17 The Importance of Standards in the Fire Service

07:43 Adapting to the New Generation

22:46 Balancing Tough Love and Toxicity

24:14 Addressing Misconceptions and Tough Love

24:45 Navigating Toxicity in the Fire Service

25:12 Probationary Year Experiences

27:02 Balancing Toughness and Support

28:41 Respecting Diverse Backgrounds

32:14 Building Camaraderie and Tradition

40:36 The Importance of Probation

47:41 Final Reflections and Advice

Transcript

Joff: Like there's no luck i's only hard work. I don't know. That's just me. I apologize for interrupting you.

TJ: no, it's fine. It's, and, and that leads us to the next question because we can sit here and talk about luck or preparedness, but we need some, something, some actionable steps to get there. So what, what do you have for those people who are struggling who might be on their fifth, sixth, seventh, or however many attempts, you know, the people who are catching shit from ladder life, um, what actionable steps do you give them?

If you were to say like, maybe five things to get these things, like you said, like do, maybe the stars are aligned, but maybe you did a couple of things. Walk me through, through those actionable steps to get hired.

Joff: Oh man, that's so hard. 'cause I mean, it's, it's not, and that's kind of one of these things that I wanted to talk to you about with this podcast specifically because

everybody has a different, a different area from where they come from, from life, right? So what's hard work to somebody else could be seen as, you know, a fucking walk in the park for people who have been through the ringer in their lives and vice versa. And being, being prepared for this job. Everybody talks about the standard, right?

The standard that we, we, we placate to on a day-to-day basis. And to those people that spell well, the standard, the standard. I say, what's the fucking standard dude? What is it? Where is the standard written down? What is the actual, the line in the sand? And if you meet that criteria, get, then you're, you're there.

You know what I mean? Like, you knew how to, you knew how to interview. You're physically and mentally prepared for this job, and you're ready to work for the next year. And a year and a half you work your butt off as a probie or a booter and you know, then be a, a firefighter after you graduate probation, the end, you did it.

And I, I think a lot of people get caught up in that mindset of like, well, the standard. And it's like, I, I get that. I, I am, I'm right there with you, brother, sister, the standard. Yes, absolutely. What is it? So with, with that being said, make sure you are physically and mentally prepared for this job. It is.

This is not an easy job. And like I, I get what I, it's funny because I, going back and listening to the podcast that we did last time, a lot of the things that, you know, specifically I said could come off as like, yeah, we're trying to placate to these people that aren't ready for the job. And that's not the case.

It's, Hey, we see that you're not ready. Let's get you ready and then let's get you on the department that you want. Let's get you tuned up in that interview so that you sound rehearsed. That you, I'm sorry that you don't sound like a robot, that you sound ready to go in that interview. So physically and mental, mentally prepared, going on Ridealongs, practicing your fucking interview.

If you go into this interview and you don't know how to interview or you don't know what that city wants you to say, because one, you've never done a ride-along because you don't know the culture, you don't know the way that these people work, like that's your own fault. So start going on ride-alongs. If you don't know how the fire department works, maybe go take a firefighter one and two program.

Maybe that's gonna get you put in the right direction. You're gonna start learning the terms for things, the slang for things like you're gonna start learning how the department works and how they pull lines and what they call fire hydrants and this, that, and the other thing. Do everything that you can to get yourself.

In this mindset to I'm going to do one of the hardest, best jobs on the world in, in the world and understand that this, the job's not meant for everybody. You know what I mean? We had a conversation like this the other day, and I get so fucking sidetracked. I'm sorry.

TJ: I love it.

Joff: We had a conversation like this the other day on the podcast where I was talking about how I've been, you know, having the conversation with people recently about how, you know, the kids today don't wanna work.

They don't want to blah, blah, blah, this, that, and the other thing. Nobody knows what hard working is anymore. And I go, there's a different definition of what hard work is, and it's a, this people think that they can pick this phone up and become a superstar overnight. Our, the chil children are seeing that.

Teenagers are seeing that, and young adults are seeing that because they grew up in this technology age where. You, you can become a streamer playing video games and make millions of dollars doing it. So it's a different definition of what hard work is. And Chris, who's the, uh, co-host on the podcast went well, yeah, but there's a significant amount of life lessons that you can't learn on this.

And I said, yes. And that's the parent's problem. That is the parent's issue where they go, Hey, we need to teach you all of these things and hopefully point you in the right direction. And don't get me wrong, I don't have kids. I don't know how hard that is. I don't, I don't give them iPad time. But like, dude, hard work is just a, it is just, there's a different definition of it now, and it's up to us to help these people learn what that is.

Because if we're gonna keep getting these Gen Z people that are gonna be, uh, like, that are gonna be trying to get hired. They need to understand what this job is truly about. And like when the fir, when the whole like departments started getting on Instagram and TikTok and you know, Facebook and we're like, Hey, like come work for us.

You know, like the fucking doing the, the dances and stuff. And everyone's like, oh my God, that's so cringey. They're, they're trying to get to the mindset of these different age groups. We need to figure out some way to make this job look interesting to Gen Z and Gen Alpha. And Gen Beta. Like, what a name.

Um, like we, we have to figure that out, you know what I mean? And we have to teach them what hard work is and what this job is about. Otherwise, the culture is gone. The department's gonna be a completely different thing in the next 20 years. More balloons. I just, yeah. I think I went off on another tangent there,

TJ: Yeah. Well, it's 

talking about actionable steps, but it, it, you know, your tangent puts us on a, on a different track, which I really want to kind of dig into because for the people in, it's so easy to say, new people dunno how to work. They suck. They've never, you know, they, they don't know construction man.

Some of the guys that I work with were like, some of you guys don't know anything about, you know, building a house. I'm like. I don't know, but you gave me that hazmat meter and I can tell you exactly how that motherfucker was programmed and the fancy shit I can do with it. And it is up to the people inside when it comes to these new generations. To put our ego aside, I know it's a tough concept because for, for a lot of us, Hey, we finished the fire academy. I'm hot shit. I'm in the in club.

Joff: mm-hmm. 

TJ: who are not in the incl. And we get that ego because hey, we're, we're in, we're untouchable, right? I'm here for the next 20 years. I'm, I'm writing this for, for as long as I can, but it's up to us if, if we wanna keep that culture, to make that effort to bridge that gap.

Hey, I understand you don't know how a screwdriver works. Let me show you and maybe let's find a couple TikTok videos that are going to show you how it works or it's. We gotta learn how to speak that language. We have to, because sitting here bemoaning, the fact that the TikTok generation is now getting in the fire department is not gonna do us any good.

Oh, these people don't remember nine 11, no motherfucker. That's how time works. A lot of people are 

getting in and you know, it's 2025, so they could be 24 years old. They don't remember nine 11. And it's

okay. We, it's up to us to teach them and it's 

up to us to take those values that those people displayed that day and be, Hey, this is what we expect.

This is what the fire service stands for. And if you're in, we want you to have those same values.

Joff: This is a standard. This is what, this is what our standard is.

TJ: and, and that's the other thing that I wanna talk about. The standard is that it's unique to departments, to shifts, to stations. Like B shift at my station. They just ized wrong and they were responsible for global warming.

That is the B shift standard. But figure out what yours is and uphold it. There's something that I always, you know, people like to, to throw shade at Baltimore City Fire department a lot. They're like, oh, they're cowboys. They do reckless shit. You can say whatever you want, but those people have a culture and an identity that basically says, okay, yeah, we might be fuckups and we might be fighting amongst ourselves every now and then, and in your eyes we're fuckups, but you're still an outsider.

You don't understand the Baltimore Fire way. And that's something that I 

really admire. They have, they have that culture. They have, there are times that I have seen them do things that you're like, that would never work anywhere else. Because nobody has that same sense of culture and it's, it's a them thing.

And that is their standard. That is, Hey, Baltimore, fire above everybody else. This is how we do things. We're together. Maybe I'm gonna turn around and fight my shift, mate. It doesn't fucking matter. But if you get in between the two of us, we're gonna gang up on you plain and simple. So it's whatever 

that standard is, find it and uphold it, and those standards can evolve.

Now we're getting into like the super nebulous talk and super like crazy esoteric stuff,

Joff: No, I agree.

TJ: have to evolve with, with time. The, the same, the same shit that worked 20 years ago is not gonna work now.

Joff: No, you, you know the seagulls from, uh, finding Nemo?

TJ: Yes. 

Joff: mine, mine, mine. Like those guys. Yeah. That's what happened when one person posted, oh, the standard in big, bold letters on a picture of a firefighter on a roof. I'm like, that's cool. That, does that make me go? Hell yeah, brother. Yeah, it does.

But what does it mean? What does it mean, dude? Like, and then everybody else sees it and goes, the standard. The standard, the standard, the standard. And you're like, what does it, what does that mean? Like, I get it. I get it. We all have a general understanding, right? Of what it is. It's like, but that's like the whole controversy.

What's, what's going on right now with like, oh no, we're hiring people that don't meet the standard. Okay. Where, show me them. Are they in the room with us right now? The fuck dude, like here's, here's the deal. Are you physically capable to do this job If you're not sorry, can you become physically capable to do this job?

Is the answer yes. Fuck yeah. Keep going. Are you going to be a good person on this job? Are you going to be good to our customers? And are you going to be good to our people? If the answer is yes, keep going. And then are you gonna have my back? Are you gonna, are you, if, can you pull me out of a fire? Like I.

That's pretty much it in my book. You know what I mean? I don't care what God you pray to at night. I don't care what you look like. I don't care what music you like, if you chew with your fucking mouth open, I don't care what kind of car you drive. I know, and I'm a big, big proponent of people who do that or who don't do that, but dude, like it's, it's just become like, it almost seems like we're trying to push people away when all we really need is more people.

And like I said, not everybody can do this job, but we still, there is a mass exodus happening. Get ready, get ready, dude. Like we're gonna, we need the people regardless. We can't get the numbers. We, we need people to come and want to be firefighters. So let's show them. Let's be accepting, let's make, let's show them what the real standard is.

TJ: And I find it hard to believe that the people who are talking about this standard never once experienced that sort of shit. It, I can rewrite my history and my story as many times as I want. I can sit here and tell you all sorts of crazy things that nobody can check me on, and you might believe me because you have nobody checking me on that.

And you'll be like, wow, TJ's fucking incredible. When in reality maybe it didn't happen. Which let's be honest, it probably didn't happen, but. A lot of these people, I, I like, I, I just don't believe that they have always been the gung-ho, like perfect Tommy Gavin, you know, like a combination of rescue Me and Backdraft and Chicago fire level heroes.

We're all humans. We all fuck up. I, I, I can, it's going to, I'm gonna need more than five hands to list all the people that you can go talk to about me. And they're gonna be like, well, I fucking hate that guy. And I hopefully have more than five hands about people who are gonna say, well, that dude's cool and it's okay.

Like, we're we, we all hopefully right? You're like, no, not me. Fuck that. Um, but,

Joff: no, I didn't. Sorry, go ahead.

TJ: um, I, I really like what you mentioned about if you're not in shape, you can, can you get in shape? Can you get in that fighting shape? Because we can always keep reinventing ourselves. We can always. As long as we're still in this fight, it is okay to learn and grow and improve.

There are people that I can look back in my department who were the biggest fuckups, who had DUIs, who had violent charges brought against them, who you would look into and be like, you are the biggest piece of shit ever. And they disappear and they started grinding hard and now they're slowly promoting and you look at 'em and you're like, you know what? Who you are now given your history makes you like, makes me wanna listen to you, makes me want to follow you because you have not had it easy and you have shown that you will put in that effort. I dunno, I think, I think we come to expect this, and again, we're getting philosophical, but I think we come to expect some sort of perfection from people who have never done this and we're holding them to our standard when they haven't been there.

But the, any closing statements on the standard, because we can go round and round and round.

Joff: No, dude, I just think that I, and it's my own fault, I read a lot of the, uh, the peanut gallery comments, like when we post on, when we post shit and 

TJ: They're 

awesome though. 

Joff: people, some of them people are allowed to learn and grow and change. It's, it's, it's a concept. I know, I know people, I, I just fucking, I don't understand why everybody is so against like.

What's that? What's that quote? What's the one, the two things firefighters hate the most is change and the way things are. So it's like everyone just says that as a joke. Like, oh yeah, haha. And then nobody actually like reads it and they go, oh wait. Oh, now I, now I understand it. Like, don't get me wrong.

Like I said, firefighters are dumb. That's why we all wear helmets to work. But dude, like everybody's, there's, there's just this, this idea of what everybody wants the fire department to be and what it really is. You know what I mean? It's like, yeah, jobs every day, no medical calls, traumas, saving grandmas out of trees, like stuff like that.

Crazy, crazy shit, right? Like everybody wants to do the hero shit, but. What the fire department is really slowly becoming is the EMS. It's like we run 98% EMS calls now with the occasional sprinkle in of job town every once in a while. Are there cities out there that burn significantly more than others?

Fuck yeah, there are dude. Hell yeah. And good for them. That's awesome. I, but like, is it reality as much as it used to be? No, unfortunately not. And like that's kind of one of those things that we need to adapt to. Um, do we still need to be physically and mentally and as prepared as possible for the occasional fire or the occasional triple house fire on some random weird day?

Yes, absolutely. Do we need to be able to save every single person that we can? Yes, absolutely. Like there is a standard, but I want people to say what it is instead of just. Like regurgitating everything that they hear on Instagram. And it's why don't get me wrong, I'm sure people will scroll through fire athlete and kind of like be like, well, you said look, you said, you said a picture of a firetruck that says pride on it.

I'm like, yeah, because I had just watched my truck on a day where I wasn't supposed to wash my truck and it looked really good. And fuck dude. I wanted everybody else to see how good it looked, and I meant my firetruck not my truck. You know what I mean? But like if you put a picture of a firefighter on a roof, fucking cut a hole and there's smoke and flames coming up through it, and every fucking person on that job like knows that feeling, hopefully.

And they just go the standard. What's that mean? Tell me. And every, every single one of us, everybody who's on this job, I hope has an idea of what that is or has a, a set of rules and lists, like a list of what that is. But until we tell everybody else and everybody else is under the general understanding of what that truly means, stop fucking regurgitating it.

Like it's like some gospel verse the end.

TJ: I am gonna start my religion, but it's gonna be fire service based religion. 'cause who was, am I allowed to talk shit about Scientology or am I gonna get canceled if I do that?

Joff: I don't know, dude.

TJ: uh, 

Joff: Isn't, is Tom Tom Cruise gonna come for you?

TJ: Or what's, what's a dude l Ron Hubbard, like the Scientology Sky daddy guy. Like that Dude, I think he's, his quote was something along the lines of like, if you wanna make money, write a book.

If you wanna make lots of money, start a religion. I'm gonna start a religion, but it's gonna be, we're gonna call it the standard and it's gonna be about fire department shit. And um, yeah, it's gonna be awesome. You can be a prophet for it if you're, if you're in, we'll have you sign a contract and an 

NDA and everything. 

Joff: I wanna be on stained glass.

TJ: Oh dude. Hell yeah. Saint J.

Joff: That's the, uh, the, the prophet of memes, right? Yeah, that's 

him. 

TJ: I mean, dude, a religion with memes. Hell yeah. I mean, 

that's, that's us on the internet every fucking day. Jesus.

Joff: I'd go,

TJ: All right. Um, the new generation is actually big on memes. The, the, the 

Gen Z and the alpha and that culture is, um, is truly different from what we've all dealt with. So now let's talk about those newer folks.

We've talked about getting hired, but now let's say they went through the process. They're in, you know, what is it? Bright-eyed, bushy tailed, wet behind the 

ears, green, whatever other expressions we come up for them and we, sadly, I can say that I think most of us have shown up to a place where from the get go, as new people were just being shed on for no other reason than we are new.

Now, granted, every single person I. Who gave me shit when I was a rookie, if they're listening to this well deserved because I needed to learn a lot and I needed a lot of tough love and I needed a lot of figure the fuck out buttercup.

Joff: Yes.

TJ: But I wanna pick your brain about that line between building that toughness and giving that tough love, but also the toxicity.

And this goes back to a comment that you made before in whatever, in 40 or 41 where you said, Hey, the Buddha shouldn't be shit on. They should eat first. They should sleep the most because they were working their asses off. And my God, did the hive

Joff: Oh dude. 

TJ: out? Like I think the latest one that I sent you is some, some.

Child. I think he had like, you know, username slash like 1998 or something. So that's probably the day that the year that they were born. It's like, oh, this is written by a probe. I'm like, J the internet is saying you're 

a fucking probe. I, and I, I, I laugh at those comments. I don't take them seriously because some people, one of my other guys that I interviewed 30 some years in the fire service, so somebody's like, this dude sounds like a snowflake who just got hired and can't take it as a rookie.

I'm like, this man used to mine coal in the mountains of Pennsylvania, like underground, and then went on to become 

a decorated fireman. But you don't know that story. And I'm not even gonna sit here and tell you about it because I'm not out to try to prove everyone right or wrong. But your 

comment that you 

Joff: not worth it.

TJ: dude, it's not worth it.

But based on what you talked about, based on on how I agree that we should treat the Buddha and the probies, let's talk about that line between. The tough love and building that toughness and the straight up toxicity. Have you ever encountered what you feel is toxicity? Have, have you ever dealt with the people who just make your life a living hell for no reason?

Joff: Yes. Um, specifically mine? No. I had a great probationary year, a great booter year. Um, I had a ton of awesome people that were willing to teach and ready to teach and gave that tough love. But there were a couple times, dude, obviously where I'm like, I, on probation, I can remember like being on an, it was a stupid alley fire.

A bunch of palm trees were on fire, right? And I'm sorry, Palm Tree Frons were on fire. Do you know what those are? Do you know what Palm Frons are?

TJ: out on the ground. I don't, I don't know what the, those sound exotic. Let me call John in South Florida and be like, Hey buddy, you know, 

from Rescue on headquarters. Where are Palm Franz?

Joff: Po po front Google it. Uh, but dude, I, we had, we had worked our asses off that morning doing a skills course and it was chess day before that. And then like, we were running a bunch of calls and then we got this, it's like 110 degrees. And I am doing my absolute very best to try and get these pom frons, like this massive pile of pom frons not on fire.

And then you have to get all of them off because they're shedding water, so they're not, you're not getting down to where the, the actual embers are and all that shit. And I just remember my captain looking at me like, dude, like buck up. And I'm like, I'm dude, come on. Please give me like, I get it. I was probably just being a little bitch, but give me some credit.

That's like the best story I have, right. Everybody else, so willing to teach, so willing to extend that helping hand. But as a rover, I have seen things where I'm like, that person's trying their best. And you're just like, you're just being the salty firefighter. You know what I mean? And I, I'm all about, you know, giving shit to the new guy, making them feel like one of the, the new person, sorry, the new guy or girl.

Um, but like there's, there, like you said, there's that level between teaching and giving tough love. And then the toxic part of it where it's just like, dude, you're, that's chill. Like you one, they're mentally, they're mentally drained. They are just fried in the brain, depending on what time of day it is, how much work we've actually done that day.

Give them some credit. As the probationary person, do you need to just deal with it? Sometimes, yeah, sometimes no. Like there's a line between, Hey, dude, don't get me wrong. Like, I, I, I know back in the day, like people used to get hired at 18, 19, and 20 and like these 30 year olds were, you know, 30, 30, 40 year olds are like, Hey, this is, this is a man's job.

You gotta be a man. And they're like, okay, it sounds good. But like, we got people fucking getting hired at like 30 now that have been through like wars,

TJ: Yeah.

Joff: you know, and did construction and did concrete and or fucking worked a corporate job. Then they were like a high-end exec and they're like, you know, I don't wanna fucking do this anymore.

I wanna be a firefighter that are, these are adults and these, you know, they gotta play the game just as much as the next person. But at the same time, it's like. Hey, I'm a fucking adult dude. Like, talk to me like I'm an adult and the I will do, I will you say jump, I will say fucking how high, you know what I mean?

Like, I got hired at 28 and I, since I turned fucking 34, people still tell me that I look like I'm 12 in the last, the last couple years, not so much. You know, the eye bags are starting to get to me, but like, people look at you and they just kind of assume and they say, Hey, this, this kid doesn't know anything about anything.

Like, let's assume that he doesn't know anything about anything. But if you, if you're just like, Hey, tell me what you used to do. Well, I did construction. I used to do concrete. I worked at a desk. I used to be a lifeguard. Shit, like all that random crap. People go, oh, all right. Well you have, you have an idea of what hard work is.

Maybe I should have asked first. And it's like all we have to do is sit down and talk with these people. And personally, I think at my city specifically, does a fantastic job of that. Have I seen some things out there where I'm like, ah. Probably could do without that. Yes. But have I seen great probationary captains and great backseat firefighters and great engineers that only want the best for this department and that probationary firefighter?

Fuck yes. I have so to reiterate on my last statement on our last podcast together, yes, I do still think that the Booter should eat first. I think that the Booter should be able to go to bed at a decent hour because they are the hardest worker on the truck, or at least they should be trying to be the hardest worker on the truck.

You should be as the boot probationary firefighter, you should be wanting to be the hardest worker. You should be wanting to be the last one to eat, the last one to go to sleep. But I also want people on that truck to be like, listen, dude, eat. We're about what? What happens if we get a fire eat first. Like go to sleep at a reasonable hour, make sure everything's done for the night.

But it's okay to go, you know, rack out around like 10. I, that's just, that's just me.

TJ: I am so excited for you to catch flack about that comment about racking out at 10, because there's gonna be I only went to bed at three in the morning after, you know, I don't know what the fuck, like cleaning every bathroom with a toothbrush because that's what rookies do or whatever. Like, I'm just, I'm excited for the comments and 

I, I, there's no notes.

I, I wholeheartedly agree with everything that you've said, and it's, it's important to remember that these, these rookies, probationers, booters, whatever we wanna call them. They're still part of our team. They still count as part of our crew and they need to do the job. So let's get them fed. Let's make sure they're not running on minimal sleep because they have the next 20, 25, 30 years of their lives, they're gonna be running on minimal sleep.

So while they're trying to learn and they're trying to understand all of the things, and hopefully get the gist of it, let's not just completely crush them because they're new. Like this ain't Special Forces training. And that, that was always my favorite too. And you, you go back to the people that were hiring who have been to war, there was a guy I'll never forget, super quiet, soft-spoken. I got to talk to him one time. He was a machine gunner in Iraq and then went back and worked like diplomatic gigs all over the world, knows a handful of languages. Was responsible for basically like translating super time sensitive stuff to make policy changes. And I just kept thinking like, there are people out here who are gonna try to make you do pushups or tell you that you don't understand how life and death this is.

I'm like, my man was over there firing a 50 cal, you know, taking rounds. I think he kind of knows a little bit about hard. Why don't we use that person with those experiences to the best of our ability? Don't cut 'em any slack. But also, you know, at the end of the day, it's a fire department in America. It's not gonna compare to taking rounds overseas.

Joff: No, absolutely not. But I will say one of the cool things about a lot of the, the people that have served, um, come back here and when they get hired, they know how to take directions. They know how to play the game, and they're the ones that figure it out quickly because of what they did. Um, and I have, I've seen it in the faces of some of these people when, you know, they, they're happy to do dishes, they're happy to mop the floor, they're happy to be the last one to eat, but it's because they were trained to be that way, and they have that tough mindset.

And I, dude, like, I didn't serve, like, I don't even think I ever got anywhere close to serving. You know what I mean? Like, that wasn't in my, my deck of cards. But like, I can see it in these people's faces when they're like, when someone talks a little down to them. You know what I mean? Like, hey, you probably don't know much about life.

And they're like, dude, I fucking pulled my friend across a dirt fucking alleyway while getting fired at and returning fire. Don't fucking look at me and tell me that I don't know about life. Like, it's those situations. But there's also the situation where you get the very green 22-year-old, 18-year-old kid that's brand new on the job, and they want to be like this star firefighter, and they're trying so hard and you know, they're messing up and they're, they're asking too many questions and they just get, they're ir, they're getting irritating, that sort of thing.

Those people, regardless of who they are, all deserve the same respect to be taught and handled in the same way. You know what I mean? It doesn't matter what background you have, it's, Hey, can we mold you into the best firefighter that we can make? Because we all have the same job to do. So let's all do the same job and be the same person while on calls, but that, that'll get into a whole nother conversation.

That diversity, I know that's a big word, that diversity makes our department great, dude, diversity makes us stronger. Your background and what you did in your life will help us on a call that I would not be able to give my background to. I'm just there to lend aid, you know what I mean? Like when I show up and I have tattoos all over my arms, and the guy with three teardrops and prison tats all over himself goes, Hey man, I really like your work.

I can be like, Hey, you know, I, I, I really don't like that swastika, but I do like some of your other work, dude. You know what I mean? Does that like you're able to connect.

TJ: You, you are, you are. And, um, it, it leads into another question that I had that we're talking about tradition, because normally the, the tradition that we have espoused in the fire service is the people that come from the trades who have, you know, service experience, who have done the traditionally hard things. And I think

we get lost in the weeds in not realizing that people with any sort of variety and background will help you better connect with the citizens and better accomplish a job. Like as, again, I, I don't wanna keep using my thing, but like, you know, the dude who, who was pulling his buddy across an alley in, in Iraq, that's a certain set of values and skills that are gonna be amazing for the team.

Maybe he's the one paying attention in case, you know, the gang banger who just got shot in case somebody comes back, he's like, Hey man, something's off. Like, let's, let's get behind cover something. Like they, they might understand those vibes better. I was the translator, even though I pretended not to speak a lick of Spanish.

I'll be like, and my shift is like, are you kidding me right now, bro? I'm

Joff: Uh,

TJ: what? I don't, I don't speak it. They're like, shut the fuck up and translate. And we.

Joff: sorry guys.

TJ: You know, you're over there making friends with the, the Aryan Nation people and, and enjoying your tattoos

Joff: No,

TJ: bro, we 

are getting canceled.

Scientology swastikas,

Joff: Uh, 

TJ: the shit that we didn't record. Thank God we didn't because that one would also get us canceled.

Joff: yeah.

TJ: I mean, it's a brave new world when it comes to, to the fire service and the people that we're getting are non Yes, there's a dog. She's back.

Joff: Yeah. My wife just got 

TJ: Oh, it's not ISIS again.

Joff: No, not this time. Give me, uh, give me three minutes or do you have to keep recording? Is it gonna start over?

TJ: dude, we can keep recording. It's fine. You can mute

Joff: Oh, okay.

TJ: I can, we can edit it in post.

Joff: Okay. Hold on one second. I will be right back, ed. We're back.

TJ: That was the fastest three minutes ever. I feel so bad for your wife.

Joff: I'll tell her that.

TJ: Please do. I just had one of my old medics text me. She's um, god bless her, she is such like a meek, nice innocent child. We had to explain to her what a body count was because she thought it was the number of patients who had died under your care.

Joff: Oh 

TJ: Oh dude. So one day she goes to the MS officer and she's like, Hey ka um, 'cause we work day shift.

She's like, I added to my body count B shift morning. And he's like, okay. She's like, yeah, it was this like crazy looking dude off of route one on the 

side of the road. And he's like, I don't know why you're telling me. We're like, Tess, it's not what you think it means. So she's like, oh, I thought it was dead patients.

I'm like, no, it's not patients who have 

died. No, 

you, you, sweet summer

Joff: honey. No, that's awesome.

TJ: like, I just had to explain to one of our guys the joke about abortions and coat hangers. Like, is this real life? I'm like, Tess, your joke delivery is garbage. So maybe that's why he didn't get it. Let's, let's go 

back and look at ourselves first. Um, God, well, we've gone round and round about the standard, about rookies.

Joff: Yeah.

TJ: What else shall we get into

Joff: Uh, I don't know, man. I'm looking at this.

TJ: 'cause a lot of, I mean, a lot of these are gonna, I feel like we've covered and um, we can go, we can get into Woe is me territory. I think I just,

I want of my, my autistic pre-workout infused mind to come up with some of these.

Joff: yeah. I just kind of wanted to like, the, the whole thing with, I understand why people get so butt hurt about like the, the probe being the first to eat and the last, the first to sleep. I. Like, as a probationary firefighter, you should like, uh, like I said, you should want to be the last to eat and the last to go to sleep.

You should want to be the hardest worker on the truck. You should want to constantly be learning and going out and pulling lines and putting up ladders and doing everything that you can within that year to make sure that you are the finest tuned firefighter by the time that you go into the roving trail.

Right. That is the point of probation. But like that thing where we, and, and like I said, we're, we're getting away from that. We are getting away from that negative culture where it's like, work 'em into the ground until they can't work anymore, and then they're useless on a fire, and then we just tell them that they're useless because we, you know, basically shot ourselves in the foot by working them so hard that they were useless.

Like we we're. It's, it's definitely getting away from that. I have seen bits and pieces here and there, and I have heard stories through, you know, fire athlete and a couple other platforms that are like, yeah, man, like this is how my, my probationary captain and crew treated me and this, that, and the other thing.

And I'm like, I'm so sorry. That is so terrible. Like, I hope that you have a better career than, you know, your probationary year, stuff like that. But the point of probation is to work your ass off. That is how that works. We should be helping these people work their asses off, though a booter is not your excuse to stop working, which can be, you know, that can happen sometimes, unfortunately.

But like that, one of, one of the questions that I saw on your list was like, camaraderie and how that works and all that stuff. And dude. I, I enjoy hearing new stories because you know, when, when you spend your hundredth, 200th thousandth shift with the same people, things tend to get a little, like a little, uh, dry.

You know, you've heard, you've heard all the same stories, you've been on all the same calls. Like, so it's kind of cool when somebody roves in and somebody's off and you're like, Hey dude, how's life out there on the roving trail? What the fuck is going on in the department that I haven't seen in, you know, two years?

So it's like, if you get this, this proby, this booter, they have all this, like this life that's had, that's been lived, and you should want to hear all of those things and what makes them them and what makes them tick, and how they're going to be the best firefighter that they can be for this department.

And that should give everybody that fire in their bellies and remind them of their story and how they got here and so on and so forth, right? And that in turn. Builds comradery. Like we are building relationships through new people, new relat, new relationships, new events, and unfortunately trauma sometimes, but also like, like bring them into the fold.

Make them feel like they're part of the group, like they're part of the brotherhood, the sisterhood. That's what it's all about. I come to work every day, so I get to hang out with my best friends. I don't come to work to, don't get me wrong. Love running EMS calls, love running fires, love driving that fire truck.

I get to do it with some of my best friends. So if you keep that mindset with these new people, they're gonna be one of your best friends sooner or later, or you're gonna see 'em out on the roving trail when you're out there working overtime or doing something. God knows what, and they're like, dude, how's it been since I've seen you three years ago?

And they're like, awesome. Thank you so much for treating me well on probation. Let's have a great day and everything's great. And that's how it should be. It's, it's not that hard. I get people have different opinions of like what that specifically means, but the overall, you know, it should be part of the standard.

Right.

TJ: And we're back,

Joff: And we're back.

TJ: back to the standard. I had a conversation with a dude who ended up becoming one of my good friends because we both came to Station nine around the same time. He is a rookie. And me, after getting transferred, you know, getting the wind, taking outta my sales, they were like, you're going from special ops to ordinary ops.

I'm like, what? No.

Joff: Mm-hmm.

TJ: But, um, something that I never saw as a, as a new guy is that he would just be sitting there glue to his phone, like watching shows. I'm like, Hey, bro. I think you wanna just join the conversation and it stuck with me because he said I have nothing to contribute. Which, what is the one thing that new people and old people in the fire department alike all have in common? Everybody sitting at the table went through a fire academy. There is nothing more exciting than comparing academy stories. Talking. Some people might have had like absolute sociopaths as academy instructors. Some might have had people who were. Just ready to retire. Who didn't give a fuck? Like some of the guys were talking about like, oh yeah, we brought in an espresso machine and we had a panini maker.

I'm like, what in the fuck? They used to watch us through cameras and wait until we took like two or three bites of our lunch and then kick the door open and make us pt. So we were close to puking to the point that I'm like, you know what? They try that next time I'm gonna puke on one of them 'cause I can't help it. But everybody across the board has those academy stories. Good, bad. And what better way to relate to each other than to talk about and, and maybe somebody sitting at a table was an instructor at your academy and maybe they can shed different light. It's like you mentioned, it's that way to share those news stories to get away from the stale, same old bullshit build that camaraderie

Joff: Absolutely.

TJ: so

Joff: It's, It's, it is just that, that thing, dude, like, I will die on this hill. Like, I don't like, I, like I said, I don't care what background you're from, what God you pray to at night, who, what you look like, who you are. I, the diversity of the fire department makes the, the fire department great. That is what it is.

And that's what makes Kitchen Table talk the best because we all have roughly the same experiences, just in a different font. That's how it is. And if, if people take that away, like it's not gonna be a fire department anymore. You know what I mean? We gotta be good to each other. And it's just a bummer. I, I, I want, I want everybody to be happy, but you know.

TJ: I am just gonna settle for calling people out on social media and starting shit, you know?

Joff: Yeah. Be a shit stir.

TJ: last time as closing, I asked you about the failure that you cherish the most. So we're not gonna use that one, but if you could go back. To that J going into his second set of interviews, having been gut punched before, what do you tell him? What do you tell that kid? What message do you leave him that's gonna set him up for the future?

Joff: You know what? Dude, I, that's so funny you say that. I don't even know if I would say anything. I feel like I would just stand there and watch because everything that happened was supposed to happen, you know what I mean? Like, I was supposed to do terrible on that first, second round interview. I was supposed to be too cocky on that second, second round interview, and I was supposed to do it just right on that third one, and now I'm here.

I I, I mean, like I, if, if I didn't have those life experiences, I probably wouldn't be the person I am now. You know what I mean? I'd probably be like, if somebody didn't call me out for being a cocky little shit in my second round interview and telling me that it was the worst interview they've ever heard, I'd probably be a cocky little shit on the fire department and people wouldn't like me.

You know what I mean? So it's those, those experiences that I'm so grateful for because I, I want, I want to be told that I'm fucking up. I want to be told that I'm doing something wrong so I can fix those things. So I can that character development, you know what I mean? Like, that's important. If you never get told that you're a piece of shit, every once in a while you become a pretty big piece of shit.

Like, I, I just, I, I just kind of how I, I view it. I, so to answer your question, I don't know if I would, I would just kind of watch and reminisce and laugh. I'd be like, ah, you God, you shouldn't have said that. But I, I, uh, I'd probably just be a fly on the wall.