080. The Gear That's Killing Firefighters [Part 1]

If you're training to be a better firefighter but wrecking your body in the process, you're not alone — and Ryan Conley’s had enough.

In this powerful first episode, Ryan breaks down the hidden dangers of training in contaminated bunker gear and the real cost firefighters are paying in cancer, heart disease, and early exits from the job. He shares the heartbreaking loss of brothers in the field and how that sparked a movement to create safer, smarter ways to prepare for the job — without sacrificing your health.

WHAT YOU’LL LEARN:

• Why your second set of gear isn’t protecting you the way you think it is
• The link between good intentions and toxic exposures
• How to train hard without slowly killing yourself
• What sparked the "Cancer Crusade" and how it’s changing the game
• The difference between “acceptable” risk and avoidable damage

If you’re a firefighter who trains hard but worries about the long-term damage, this one’s for you.

Transcript

Today's guest is on a mission to save firefighter lives, not with a fire hose, but with knowledge, grit, and some seriously innovative gear. Ryan Conley is a firefighter, a fitness expert, and the founder of Carno Bunker Gear. A company born outta grief, frustration, and the need for change. Today we dive into the tough conversations such as cancer and the fire service, the hidden dangers of training in turnout gear and the layered exposures we all face without even realizing it.

Ryan shares how personal tragedy and professional passion collided to ignite what he calls a cancer crusade and why he's staying in his lane to make a difference. If you've ever wondered whether your second set of gear is enough, or if working out in your turnouts is making you better or sicker, this one's for you.

Let's get into it.

Speaker: Welcome to the Keep the Promise Podcast, where we help build resilient and well-rounded firefighters.

TJ: The fascinating part of being here where we are today, is that when I first joined the fire service in oh five as a itty bitty volunteer,

Ryan: Mm-hmm.

TJ: the topic of working out in gear was nowhere near anyone's mind

at all. I mean, hell, half of the people didn't even work out.

Ryan: yeah.

TJ: And now in the last four or five years, probably, we've seen a meteoric rise in the firefighter fitness influencer

account and social media being what it is.

Ryan: Yeah.

TJ: And a lot of these folks are advocating for working out in gear now. Kind of like leather helmets versus plastic helmets, smooth board versus fog, nozzles,

quince versus the world. That is one of those discussions that gets people fired the fuck up.

Ryan: Fired up, dude. Fired up.

TJ: And I mean, it brings out the best and the worst in people.

Ryan: I love watching it. It's so funny. I've got a, I think I have a pretty neutral, uh, opinion on it. A pretty good, good concept of breaking it down so we can touch on that 

TJ: and that's, that's one thing that we're gonna get into. It's um, yeah, it's fascinating watching the people come outta the woodwork and, you know,

throw things as we tend to do in social media. The one thing that I think it's important to realize as we head into this conversation is that we are already at a disadvantage. As firefighters when it comes to cancers,

when it comes to succumbing, early to things that we have control over. And, uh, take that as you will

my dear listeners, because that's the stuff that we're gonna talking about, we're gonna be talking about today, is how we can still accomplish all of the tasks that we do while working out in gear, while reducing the chances of getting cancer.

So with me on the podcast today, I have the Man behind CARNA Bunker Gear from Florida, Ryan Conley. Ryan, welcome to the Keep the Promise Podcast.

Ryan: Thank you. Thank you for having me, buddy. I know, uh, I think you accidentally just did a great intro there. 

TJ: Uh, dude, 

Ryan: flowed right into it.

TJ: Ad-libbed. We were just talking about how beforehand I tried to come up with a cool intro and I completely, the, the brain mouth connection fell apart and I

just blah.

Ryan: that was all natural. I think you killed it.

TJ: Oh, thank you. I appreciate that. So again, welcome to the podcast. I'm glad we finally made this happen. We've been much like every other guest.

We've been going back and forth for a few months trying

to get something set up. So I am super appreciative of your time and um, we'll be respectful of it. But we're also gonna get really deep into all things cancers and turnout gear, and the state of the fire service today. So let's start with who you are.

Am I allowed to say where you work?

Ryan: Yeah, sure.

TJ: Okay, cool. So you're at Cape Coral Fire Department

Ryan: Mm-hmm.

TJ: and that's technically what, Southwest

Ryan: Florida. Yeah, it's, uh, two hours south of Tampa, two hours east of Fort Lauderdale, Miami area. Sorry, west, 

TJ: I was gonna 

Ryan: geography right 

TJ: two hours. These, that's

like the Bermuda Triangle buddy.

Ryan: yeah, it's pretty cool out there,

TJ: You've been out there how long?

Ryan: uh, over 10 years now. So I started in 15, 2015.

TJ: And what drew you to the fire service?

Ryan: Um, I think a lot of the similar things that most guys were drawn to the fire service for, um, they want to help their community do some kind of public service. Um, and originally I was thinking about going down the route of being a police officer. So Yeah, I know. Oh, rough, rough idea. So luckily somebody steered me in a different direction and, uh, he was a captain at Hollywood Fire Department down in South Florida.

He was like, tell me all about it. And I was like, man, this sounds difficult. It sounds like a challenge. And that's what I'm all about. I'm like, yeah, let me, uh, give this firefighting thing a shot. And obviously when you learn about the shift work, and especially back then when you're like, oh, I get to work nine days a month, or, you know, whatever it is, it's very appealing to most, uh, young adult males.

So, um, yeah, it was all, all those things. So ch a big challenge and something that was, uh, the ability to give back to the public. Serve people and then also have some, some free time to myself to, to continue the ventures and adventures that I like to, to do.

TJ: And how'd you get there? What were you doing beforehand?

Ryan: I was a college student. I went to Florida State. I graduated with a criminology degree, so I was definitely headed down the path of the po the cop. Um, and then I was also very, very passionate about health and fitness. So I'd been, uh, Allstate wrestler in high school, TaeKwonDo black belt prior to that.

Just loved working out exercising. Uh, started competing in power lifting in, in college. So I was on the verge of either going down the professional route of, um, first responder type job career and also exercise science training, personal trainer type type that. So I decided to do the bachelor's degree when I got into the fire service and decided not to use that degree.

Um. Eventually got, I think eight years in is when I went back to school. So I got my graduate degree with the help of Cape Coral. Um, they paid for part of my classes and I was able to get my master's degree in exercise physiology. So I was able to finally to do both, which is awesome.

TJ: Well done. Look at you. A highly educated man in the fire service.

Ryan: Yes.

TJ: are smart. After all. If you had gone into the police department, you would not have been smart.

Ryan: That was our first sign.

TJ: right.

Ryan: Just kidding. Cops. We love you guys. You, you keep the scene safe for all of us and park in the way 

TJ: Yes, we, we are second responders as, as police officers. Technically third if we count dispatchers. But anyway, we're just trying to piss off everybody. Listen,

we're starting with the cops. Wait till we get to the people working out in gear. Just give us

a chance. 

Ryan: We're gonna piss off the firefighters then too.

TJ: Uh, no doubt. So. A college background, went into the fire service, made the right choice of going into it.

And even within the fire service, you've still managed to kind of go a handful of different paths.

Right. 

Ryan: I'd say so.

TJ: Tell me about this, because I have a list of coach, driver,

engineer, acting lieutenant. Then we add the entrepreneurship, which is a whole new ball game.

So, uh, yeah. Let's talk about, let's talk about the career.

Let's talk about the beginning and the things that you started progressing into and, uh,

the little side quests. 

Ryan: the side quest, the ventures, um, so it's in college. Um, like I said, I, I chose the path of criminology, but then I was also self-educating, doing personal training, certifications, working at gyms, things of that nature. Um, I had a really great mentor who was also a graduate degree. Um, he was a shot thrower at FIU Powerlifter, so I had a lot of really good connections in the strength conditioning world, um, and great mentors.

So I continued to follow that. I trained or taught, um, summer classes for athletes, um, under his tutelage during the summer every year. Um, continue to progress my knowledge there. And then when I got into the fire service, I just kind of continued that and kept that rolling while I was also competing in power lifting.

Um, so I was always being an athlete while trying to, you know, provide for myself and make a career and, and do all the things that you should do as responsible adult. Um, and that path kind of slowly merged together where we started to create a, a wellness fitness initiative at the department. And I was like, Hey, I've got a lot of experience doing this.

Like I think I could probably help our, our crew accomplish some of the tasks that they want to do in building this initiative out. Um, and I kind of just helped pick up that mantle and, and move our department forward with, with some of the stuff, um, along with a few other guys. So, um, that was more or less the trajectory of merging those things together.

Um, and then we can kind of get into, you know, the, the entrepreneurship part of it as well, but with the fire service, that's how. How most of these things happen. I just continued to coach online physique athletes, strength athletes, things like that. Um, if I couldn't do it in person since we were on shift, it kind of makes it hard to, to do personal training stuff and, and make those schedules work.

So that was pretty much how I kept in the strength conditioning game. And, and also was able to, to manage the full-time firefighter career.

TJ: Okay. And even within the fire service, you still manage to progress, right? It says Acting

lieutenant. 

Ryan: Mm-hmm. So I accomplished that last year. Um, in our department, it's firefighter, um, engineer driver is the next, uh, promotional rank. And then lieutenant, which is most people's captains, uh, we don't transport. So we usually, we just have the lieutenant position that goes right to battalion chief. Um, yeah, so we've got those, those four ranks and then obviously division chief.

Um, but I'll be taking the lieutenant test here, the next one that they put out. So, um, yeah.

TJ: so right now you're a engineer

Ryan: I am an engineer and I, yeah, yeah, yeah. So I act pretty often though, so I'm usually acting up at a title.

TJ: But why dude driving is so much more fun than anything else.

Ryan: It is fun. I do like driving. It's a really, it's so funny because when I feel like whenever you act up, whatever the position is, and then you go back to your normal role, you're like, God, this role's so much easier than whatever I'm doing. So, yeah. I dunno. It's just a part of growth, man. I, I love the driving part, but I also do enjoy like being able to be with the guys and be a leader and, and helping the, uh, the new guys come in and to, to help shape the department is really the, the long-term goal of that is like, I know that I have to, to promote up in order to make the long-term strategic effect that I, that I would like to have.

TJ: That sounded like a promotional interview answer that you just gave me.

Ryan: I need to write that 

TJ: I was gonna say, I, you can re like, re-listen to the podcast whenever you want because that we're not, we're not here for that buddy. I have no power to promote you, but I would if

I 

Ryan: come on. There we go. I need the points

TJ: How big's your department? Like how many people are you competing with for these spots?

Ryan: online. I think we're around 300 or so. Um, it really depends. The, the promotional engineer list that I was on was like 45 people, I think, and then the lieutenants gets a little thinner. 'cause a lot of guys don't want to move on that far. Um, but yeah. Yeah, but it's, you, you never know. It could be, you know, five guys or 15 or 20.

You're never really sure. It depends on who wants to do it. I've got a pretty competitive group of guys around me, the, the guys that are ready to test. So we're all kind of in the same boat.

TJ: Is it as cutthroat as all the other promotional processes? 'cause I remember when I, the times that I tested for, for driver for the equivalent to, to engineers and it, every other test that I've talked to people, like people in the department about it is like a decimal point and like a hundredth of a decimal can be the difference between promoting and being stuck in that list and dying on that list.

Ryan: Yes. Yeah, it's the same thing. It's very, very narrow margins, so you better try.

TJ: dude, I, I did it right both, like the first time I took a driver's test, I bombed it so well that there was zero doubt that I was not getting promoted. I think we had like 30 people tested, and mathematically I ranked 77th out of

30. I'm like, dude, I am not getting promoted, and there's no doubt about it.

Ryan: Don't have to worry about it.

TJ: So I had that chip on my shoulder. The next time I came about, I was like four or five percentage points above the next person. I'm like, I'm pretty sure I'm gonna be number one on the list. So I had no idea what that middle ground

was. I just fucked it up royally or did well, but I, I don't know what moderation is.

Ryan: That dude, that's a, the, those are the best lessons you learned, right? You just fail miserably. It's something you're like, oh, wow, I need to do way better at this.

TJ: Yeah, like I, I took a screenshot. I still have the screenshot of that, um, of that ranking. 'cause I, I was like, how can I be 77? Oh, I, I am awful. I am so bad at this.

Ryan: Oh God. That's funny. They took points away from me.

TJ: yeah, they pretty much like divided all my points and given to everybody else.

Ryan: Well, I'm glad you figured it out, buddy. That's, that's awesome.

TJ: Okay. We gotta get now into a little bit of the heavier stuff.

Ryan: Yeah.

TJ: You talked about losing a few friends to some health issues, and I have a feeling that might have shaped your journey into the bunker gear world. Tell me about 'em.

Ryan: Yeah, so it was. Two retirees that were, um, coming to the, they were online when I was a probie. Um, I think they worked probably two or three years into, um, or I worked two or three years and then they, they went to retirement. So I had known both of them. They both helped me out. Um, one was a driver and then one was a lieutenant.

She was a super nice lady and very like, motherly, like older. Um, was, was very, uh, she was just taking care of people and like trying to help me not step on landmines more or less while I was on probation. So I appreciated both of them. And then within one of 'em passed away probably six months after she retired.

And then the, the guy passed away I think within two years after he retired from both from cancer. Um, and then the other one that really hit me hard was, um, he was a tenure firefighter. Just got promoted to, to driver. He had also helped me out tremendously, like a lot. He was out there in the, in the bunker gear with me out in the bay going over stuff, teaching me things.

Um, he was an instructor of the academy, multiple kids, and he had a stroke at probably, I think he was probably around my age right now. So he passed away. Um, uh, going to shift that morning and then some of our guys ran him. So those experiences kind of opened my eyes to, um, the realities of things where we're not guaranteed to get to enjoy retirement.

And that's when I did start kind of wanting to emphasize the things that I knew and the things that I was passionate about, learning and understanding and applying and spreading that awareness into my department and the fire service in general, because we really did not have a good foundational grasp on some of these things.

And there is more and more data and education that's come out and there's. More colleges and programs and doctors and PhDs and studies that have been done within the past 10, 15 years that have really helped, I think to, to help shape the fire service moving forward. Um, and we just need to connect the dots and make sure that this information and, and knowledge is getting number one heard, understood, and then applied.

So, and that's kind of what, what I think I do a really good job of filling the role, of getting the information to the guys and applying it properly. Because sometimes it doesn't make sense when it's coming from a higher academic level and they're just talking about their studies and God bless 'em, God love them because we need this stuff.

And I love reading their studies. I'm a nerd. I go through and PubMed and all this stuff and research this stuff all the time, but most guys don't want to hear it or they don't understand it. And there needs to be a connection, um, from taking it from, Hey, this guy's doing. 20 papers this year. Like if you're operating a lab, you are so deep into everything that's going on with yourself and your students and your studies.

They don't even have time to keep up on what else is going on at other schools or other research that's coming out. So I have the ability to, to try and read some of this stuff, apply like a big universal picture, and take all their individual studies that are great and apply it to the fire service.

TJ: Now it's interesting because I remember hearing the grumblings about PFAS in our gear about

the bad stuff in our gear back in like 20 14, 20 15,

Ryan: Okay. Yeah, that was a while ago 

TJ: it almost felt like those rumors that you hear at the firehouse and it almost felt like it was some sort of far away epidemic that you're like, it might hit us, it might not. So we kind of like put it out of our heads and I'm curious to see how you took those tragedies and, and the nerdy side of you and decided I'm gonna go after this exposure route, which is. The turnout gear

for trade like that is laser specific.

How on earth did you end up at that point?

Ryan: Um, so the short story is a short, medium story. We, uh, I was recently split from my ex of like nine years, nine and a half years. Um, I messed my back up. I wasn't training in power lifting anymore. I was really like, I'd moved in with my mom. I had a lot of, uh, questions that I needed answered in life. And I was coming back from the gym with one of my best friends who's also our, uh, partner with the company.

And we were just, you know, shooting shit and talking about some of our really good friends at the, the department, the training gear all the time. And I'm like, dude, it really sucks that. These guys who are some awesome firefighters, are taking an unnecessary risk training in gear all the time out here doing workouts, uh, getting after it and trying to become better firefighters.

It sucks that they're getting exposures from that, and you're kind of stuck between a rock and a hard place because if you're not comfortable in your gear, you're not, uh, in heat acclimated, you're, you're, you're taking a little bit of a risk there. And then if you're wearing your gear, you're taking an unnecessary exposure, which isn't the end of the world, but you do that over 25, 30 years.

It's a decent chunk of exposures, especially from dermal absorption. So we just started thinking, I'm like, well, we don't need to wear our frontline gear. We can just make something that mimics it. All you need is the bulk, the re, the thermal retention and you know, the replication of, I put my radio here, I've got pockets here, and let's get it done.

It's not that big of a deal. Let's just try and, uh, see if we can make something. So simple idea that, uh, turned out to be a lot harder than I thought it was, but hey, that's fine. That's why you hire professionals.

TJ: Interesting. Interesting how you ended up with that. And this was all in like the one conversation on the way home from the gym, huh?

Ryan: Well, that was where it started. And then obviously being, I was also in school at the time to a, I think I just started my master's degree. So I was kind of reading, reading up on occupational, uh, cancer Anyways, and I just started diving really deep into does this make sense? Because I was like, Hey, this is from the background that I have.

Like, I, I committed 10 years of my life to competitive powerlifting. Like I know what it takes to put in work and how much you have to do to get somewhere that's successful. And it's a very long journey. And I wanted to make sure that this, this venture made sense. That it wasn't just a good idea that it actually held weight and that it held water.

So I read as much research as I could on it. I was like, all right, copy. Dermal absorption is absolutely a primary pathway in firefighters exposure, and it's probably the most damaging exposure that we have left because we've been on air and we've been on SBAs for generations now. So we know the respiratory part.

Why are we still getting cancer? It's at 14 death cancer deaths at 14% higher rates than, uh, uh, typical Americans. So dermal absorption was absolutely a game. Uh, a game changer is a big, big deal in the fire service. And then secondarily, the gear doesn't ever get clean. No matter how you wash it, it will get cleaner, but it is never absolutely a hundred percent clean.

Um, no matter what kind of cleaning solution you use, no matter if you pre-soak it, which helps if you use liquid CO2, uh, depending on the detergent, what chemicals you're looking at, all these different things, it doesn't matter. It's. When in the fire service, everything that we do is based off of risk versus reward.

So to me, if there is a reward to training in gear and being acclimatized and being comfortable in your bunker gear, why are we taking any risk if we don't need to? Because putting on bunker gear that's been exposed to training fires or frontline, uh, exposures in a real fire is some kind of risk. So I'm like, screw it.

We don't need to take any risk. I don't care what the absolute total number is. There is an exposure that you're experiencing. Let's not have it. Let's eliminate one exposure from off the firefighter's plates. We have enough shit to worry about.

TJ: Right, and that's not gonna be the thing that kills all cancer in the fire service. It's not

the panacea, but like you said, it's a stack of different exposures that if we have control of at least one, then we can minimize that risk.

Right. We're we're supposed to be on SEBA and all. Building up to this conversation.

I remember so many of the dumb things that I used to do back in, you know, the, the early two thousands.

I remember at that time it was cool to, as soon as the fire was out, rip off your face piece. 'cause you didn't wanna be the guy still breathing

when the fire was out, forgetting that there's stuff still offgassing, like your eyes are tearing up.

You have the little like soot marks under your nostrils and you know, you're, you're sneezing black gunk for the next week and a half.

And the other fucked up part that I just remembered a couple days ago is that this was the volley house. Whenever we'd have a crew sleeping in, we would always take our turnout pants and our boots into the bunk room and sleep with them right

next to our bed,

Ryan: God.

TJ: buddy.

It was, I mean, I have other things that I can discuss off the air that I'm pretty sure like they should have gotten us

killed way sooner. But, uh. Yeah. It's just one of those things that, imagine if you try to go back 20 years and tell us those years ago, Hey, um, you shouldn't take your gear into the bunk room.

You shouldn't wear it more than you have to. They'd be like,

Ryan: What?

TJ: are you talking about, nerd

boy? 

Ryan: This shit looks cool.

TJ: Right? We, we are just here to look cool. Okay. Like, babies and hang with the ladies. That's all we're trying to do.

So 

Ryan: normal clothes, dude. You're not wearing your bunker 

TJ: fuck with the suspenders down to the side. Ladder 49 style. Come on, you fucking virgin.

Ryan: nerd?

TJ: so when you started going on this path and on this, I don't wanna keep calling it a crusade, but all, let's just call it a calling,

Ryan: The Cancer Crusade.

TJ: the cancer. Ooh,

dude. Get 

Ryan: Dude, honestly, part the, the bunker gear is a part of the cancer crusade for sure. Like what you said before, it's not a silver bullet to stop cancer in the fire service. I've have never promoted it to be that It is a controllable tool that we can adapt into the fire service and use that as progress as a cancer risk reduction strategy.

But I literally just finished making a PDF yesterday of a golden standard for cancer risk reduction protocols. That, in my mind makes sense. So I've got a plethora of things that we should do or should be implementing. Some departments implement, some of them currently, some don't. And you know, it's, it's where everybody fits in, in that picture, but that's what it is.

It's a big picture. It's a high definition problem. So I don't think that it's right to try and to tell people that like, Hey, this one low definition solution is, is affixed to cancer and the fire service. And that includes taking PFAS outta the bunker gear. That is one chemical that you're exposed to. So that's another thing that kind of pisses me off is when people think that.

Taking PFAS outta the bunker gear is gonna cure cancer in the fire service. That is the furthest thing from the truth. Um, and also taking it outta the bunker gear is making the bunker gear not function as and last as long as it should, and it's also gonna reduce your ability to have more breathable gear and to repel oils.

So there's multiple things that we need to understand in the fire service as we transition out of PFOS gear or, and use non p Ffo S gear and all those things. So, long story short, I love the Cancer Crusade thing. The CARNA is just a tool to be used under that flag.

TJ: Oh my God. I love the imagery. I'm gonna, I'm gonna, I'm gonna come up with a cool sticker this time for that. So you are in your crusade. You

realize that the bunker gear is one part of the crusade, and then you go out and you start talking to firefighters about it for the first time.

Ryan: Mm-hmm.

TJ: What were the reactions?

Ryan: Uh, it's funny, it's basically one of three. So the guys that are in the health and safety world or understand bunker gear, stuff like that, the guys that are on it, without even me saying much, they're like, dude, this is genius. Great idea. Um, or sometimes they're like, oh, I thought about that, or I heard somebody that thought about doing this.

You actually did it. This is so cool. Um, and then the second one is they're not totally sure what's going on at first and they're like, blue gear, what is this? I don't understand. And I start explaining it to 'em and I I get like, you know, two or three sentences out and then it starts registering and it makes sense to them and they're like, oh, great idea dude, this is awesome.

Thank you so much, blah, blah, blah. Um, and then the third one is I tell 'em the same spiel, like one or two, three sentences. And then you can just see on their face it doesn't register and they don't care at all and they could just give a shit less. And I'm like, copy. So I just, I see those people at, at trade shows all the time and stuff, and I know who to talk to and who not to talk to.

'cause they'll. Approach us or, you know, ask, and then I just see the, the blank look on their face and I'm like, all right. Yeah. Thank you. Have a good day.

TJ: Do you think you're on a head list for all the gear manufacturers?

Ryan: No, I think they could care less. It's so funny because Yeah, dude, I thought that this was, I'm so naive in so many ways with some of this stuff. I, uh, we got a patent on the concept because I was like, dude, they're gonna try and rip this off for sure. Like as soon as we go to the market, and then they're, they're gonna be so big that they'll just put us outta business immediately.

And I don't think any of them have given a flying crap about anything that we're doing, which it kind of makes sense. I know that I, I heard that lion had tried to do this pre COVID. Um, they couldn't get the price point low enough for what they had wanted. Um, and so for whatever reason it just didn't happen.

Um, and then aside from that, they really do have other fish to fry. Like they're trying, like the particulate blocking bunker gear that most of the frontline companies are making now. I'm a big proponent of that. I know it's hotter, excuse me, but. It's also reducing dermal exposure. It's not allowing as much, um, VOCs and, and smoke to get up into your gear because it's closed off at the, the pant cuffs and the jacket waist.

So it's actually like, think of like, I don't wanna say spandex, but it's sealing off the jacket instead of you having just open air underneath the jacket. So then you're literally just reducing the, uh, the ability for smoke to penetrate up into the gear as much as possible. So they've got stuff like that that they need to handle, figuring out what, what to use instead of the, the non PFAS, they've got waxy carbon and then, um, what's the other one?

Silicone. So those are the two main things that, that they're replacing the gear with. So they've got bigger fish to fry, in my opinion, and we do need, you know, improvement in technology in the bunker gear. So I'll just stay in my lane and they can, uh, continue to make us safe out there in the structure.

Fire.

TJ: That is a wonderfully middle of the road answer. Stay outta

that hit list. Also, my dumb ass brain is like waxy carbon. That'd be an awesome name for like an indie rock band.

Ryan: I was thinking for like a carb supplement.

TJ: Oh

Ryan: I think Waxy Maze was one of 'em back in the 

TJ: carb on,

Ryan: There you go. 

TJ: huh? 

Ryan: we got something

TJ: coming soon. Keep the promise supplements with waxy carb on

Ryan: on,

TJ: on.

So what 

Ryan: coming up with so many hits here.

TJ: this is amazing like this, I, I'm coming over to Florida for a mastermind and so I can get away from this bullshit, Marilyn Winter. What, um, what makes carna different? What, uh, like why should I. Go out and shell out my money for that gear when I could obviously use my backup gear that's semi unclean, or I could just, I don't know, buy $30 worth of hoodies and sweatpants and layer the fuck out of 'em and do that.

Why?

Ryan: For sure. Um, and you know what? There's a, I kind of middle of the road answer again with some of this stuff, but some guys take training really seriously, and then some guys also, uh, don't really understand the value of their money. So when I have guys tell me that the gear's too expensive and I see them with full sleeves and a jacked up truck and all that shit, then I'm like, yeah, it's, you know, it's whatever.

It's all their prerogative. So 

TJ: I mean, if you're gonna shit on them, like go after the trucks, go after the hunting gear, and go

after the fishing gear. Let's piss off 

Ryan: true everybody. Yeah. So all those things, I'm like, it's fine man. I get it. If you don't wanna spend your money on this, it's not a big deal. But at the end of the day, it's one of the things where. If you tear it, you can repair it for like, you know, five bucks, pennies on the dollar. It should last you ideally your entire career.

Um, it should also extend the life of your frontline bunker gear and make it safer 'cause you're not wearing it, beating it up, washing it, degrading the ability for it to protect you. So it's kind of just an investment in yourself. Um, and I have no problem with guys using their, uh, secondary set of gear as long as it hasn't gone into structure fires.

But same thing, you're still beating it up, wearing it down. And very few times guys are actually capable of having that second set of gear and not getting it exposed to anything. Like, I don't even think I have that. We have, we, we've always had two sets of gear and, you know, just luck at the draw. I think like literally the first day I took it out, like we got something and I'm like, oh, cool.

So it's hard to do that. Um, and then this, the last thing, if you're gonna wear sweatpants and a sweatshirt, um, it's something, it's not gonna give you the same thermal heat, uh, trap as our gear will. Our gear's actually a little bit hotter than some of the normal bunker gear. That you would wear? I'm not sure how it compares to the non PFOS gear, because like I said, that stuff is, is very, it will be very hot.

It doesn't, it's not as permeable. Um, it's not as breathable. And so you're not gonna totally get the physiological effect. It's not gonna be as sport specific or job specific as a set of bunker gear that is as, as clean as it can possibly be and as hot as it can possibly be. With also some of the bulk and the similar pockets, radio straps, all these things where you kind of want things to be as specific as possible within the context.

So the further you get away from that, the more general your, um, skill development and physiological adaptations are gonna be. And that doesn't mean that you shouldn't be doing them. I mean, eventually you get to the point where we're just talking about working out, right? And then that's still a part of heat acclimation.

It's a part of general fitness. So it's really just finding the niche of it and it's like, Hey, this is my sport pyramid or my, my triangle. At the base of it, we have, you know, general physical preparedness, general physical fitness levels. Um, on top of that, we're layering in like heat acclimation and making sure the guys are having some kind of heat exposure, which could be sauna or working out in the bay or at a CrossFit gym, whatever.

And then at the top of that, the top of the pyramid is gonna be full gear on air and then doing it the way that the firefighter does it. So it's really just kind of a matter of where do you wanna spend your money and time. And I'm not anybody's daddy. I'm not telling anybody what to do. You can, uh, be a big boy and make your assessment.

I will just give you the knowledge and the data and let you make the assessment for yourself and hopefully the departments pay for it. I, I love that guys are individually going out and buying it. We do have plenty of dudes that come and buy the gear, uh, for themselves, which I think is so cool. Um, but ideally we, we want the departments to be purchasing this for their guys and stepping up and, and making this a change in the fire service.

TJ: One of the most fascinating parts about this whole conversation is that I thought we were gonna go into it with the turnout gear, the, the bunker gear, just being the anti-cancer stuff.

Ryan: Mm-hmm.

TJ: I had no clue how big of

an ecosystem that was. Part of, like, it is just one thing because now you're still pushing the heat acclamation, you're pushing like the word capacity, uh, practice, and then

Ryan: The extension of the life of the, of the frontline gear. 

TJ: like there's, there's so many different things that I was like, this dude covered every base.

Well done,

Ryan: It's like an onion dude. It's a, it's, it's got layers. 

TJ: Yeah.

no, there's a, you weren't kidding about the, the, crusade, like the gear being one part of the crusade. It's a, this is a multi-pronged that you're carrying out. And, uh, I got caught off guard because I had no idea that it was so, so complex.

Ryan: I didn't mean to catch you off guard, 

TJ: Nah, dude, it's cool. I'm, if listen, I'm learning and I guarantee you that the folks listening are also learning a ton.

Ryan: Yeah, well the multifaceted approach is also difficult for us 'cause I'm like, there's so many things that we want to do and want to accomplish and it's a big picture thing. So I'm like trying to figure out where to put our energy, where to put our time, what to advertise. I'm like advertising, exercising, advertising, training, in gear, advertising, blah, blah blah.

So it's a lot to it for sure. But try and stay focused, right?

TJ: I mean, one, how do you, how does the tiger eat the elephant? Do tigers even eat

elephants? I don't even know, but we

love talking about that. 

Ryan: yeah,

TJ: Do they even like. Cohabitating like the same.

Ryan: area.

TJ: I like, who knows?

Ryan: Not I, I didn't get a degree in zoology for 

TJ: Like for all we know Tigers are hanging out in like, I don't know, Southeast Asia and elephants. I mean, I guess it could be. I don't fucking know. I just, it'd be hilarious if we use that expression a lot and they're like, Nope.

It's like you have no idea who lives where. What, um, do you see your approach to Firefighter Physical Fitness being different from most run of the mill approaches to it?

Ryan: I'll say I have my purview on it, um, like everybody does. So when it comes to something like firefighter fitness, it, that again is like a very high level, um, analysis and understanding of something firefighting as far as like fitness, performance, um, and health. And, uh, basically that in like a bubble, if you're gonna look at that from a exercise physiology, physiology, a coaching lens, um, an athletic development lens, it's complex because you're not just trying to develop one attribute.

A lot of sports kind of fall into the area of like. You know, more or less similar developmental needs, um, for the sport. So like football, you need strength, explosiveness. And then depending on the, the position they play, they might need a little bit more top end speed or a little bit more strength, like alignment, but you're pretty much running, doing some kind of throws and lifting along with practicing your sport.

So firefighting is kind of similar to CrossFit in the sense of you need a lot of different de uh, development in physiological areas. You need good aerobic fitness, you need good anaerobic fitness, you need good strength. Um, and developing those things all at once is not ideal. So you kind of need to look at it as the overarching theme of what firefighters need.

And when it comes to that, I basically just break it down into the simplest terms is you need to work out if we're doing. You know, three days a week or four days a week or something, you need have to have a couple days where you're doing long steady endurance type training where I can talk to you.

We're in that, you know, zone two, zone three type of, uh, development where you're doing something for an extended period of time. And then second, you need to do something that gets you extremely outta breath. So huffing puffing on the floor, dying, like your lung's about to cough up outta your throat. And then third, you need to do some kind of resistance training where the muscles are going to failure.

Um, and then within that, doing some kind of explosive work. So jumps, throws, things of that nature. So we're really doing everything. It's just how do you want to period periodize it and program it. And then you also have to look at the individual firefighter. I myself am, you know, 250 pounds. I competed in Power League for a long time.

I am very much overdeveloped in the strength side of what a firefighter needs. Whereas one of my, uh, good friends and chiefs of the department, he was qualified for the Boston Marathon. So you're not gonna take both of us and put us on the exact same training program. It would make no sense. So you have the general outlook of do something steady state for a long time, do some high intensity aerobic or high intensity training where you're out of breath and dying, and then do some kind of resistance training.

As long as those bases are getting covered, you really then have to look at it as the individual and providing proper coaching for them and programming. And that's one of the things where I think the fire service messes up a lot, is it's just such a generic cookie cutter program just thrown up on the board.

And I see it all the time, and it's like the WA of the day or this or that, which I. I kind of talk outta both sides of my mouth with this 'cause it's like I don't want to put a barrier on exercise in the fire service. Like I want guys to work out. So it's like, whatever you want to do, I'm fine with that.

Please, like, do not think that I'm dis promoting any kind of exercise. Um, it's just that I'm probably more of a snob looking at it from like a, a higher end level where I would like guys to have one on, not one-on-one coaching, but have somebody observing them. Because a lot of time it's movement strategies also.

And if guys aren't moving properly while they're trying to overload and make a physiological adaptation, like doing a CrossFit workout with as many rounds as possible with, you know, burpees, um, muscle ups, hand cleans, things of that nature where you can get hurt doing that, you have to figure out what the risk first reward ratio is and then you have to start them off in an appropriate like category.

So, long story short, there's a lot of things that you can look at and have maybe like general principles, um, the. F to train F to T. It's a, I think it's a international, it's an IAFF initiative. I think so, like fitness to trainer or something like that. They put on a very good class for firefighters trying to teach them to be coaches and like educate their, um, fire department on how to train and exercise.

So there's programs out there like that that provide really, really good foundational education stuff and tools for guys. Um, and then at the end of the day, you have to just be a coach or have somebody that knows how to do it, watch you and make sure you're doing the proper dosage of an activity and you're not gonna hurt yourself.

Because at the end of the day, if you're on workman's comp, the workout didn't help you. It hurt you, and we don't want that either. So it's a really fine balancing act. I hope that that didn't answer your question at all, but

TJ: No. I mean, hell, you, you pissed off all the CrossFitters by calling it the wat of the day.

Ryan: yes, a lot of the day that's like writ writ team. The writ team?