081. Training In Turnout Gear Could Be Wrecking Your Health [Part 2]

It’s one thing to call out the problem. It’s another to build the solution.

In Part 2, Ryan takes us behind the curtain of Carna Bunker Gear — from late-night ideas to market-ready innovation. He shares what it really takes to design gear that protects your health, the mindset shift needed to go from the fireground to founder, and why “just accepting the risk” is no longer good enough.

 WHAT YOU’LL LEARN:

• How Ryan turned a firehouse problem into a full-blown mission
• What firefighter fitness should look like (but often doesn’t)
• Why most wellness programs fail and what to do instead
• The hidden skills firefighters already have to become mission-driven entrepreneurs

If you’re a firefighter who’s sick of waiting for change and wants to lead it — this one’s for you.

Transcript

This is part two of our conversation with Ryan Conley, a firefighter entrepreneur, and the founder of CARNA Bunker Gear. Today we move from the why to the how. If Part one, open your eyes to the hidden dangers of training and contaminated gear. Part two is the tactical breakdown of how Ryan took an idea and turned it into a movement.

You'll hear about the mindset shifts needed to go from firefighter to founder. The hurdles of manufacture is something that's never existed before, and the unexpected lessons from lifting, failing, and then getting back up. We also explore what true firefighter fitness should look like, why most wellness programs fall short, and how CARNA is reshaping the standard, not just for today's screws, but for the next generation.

This isn't just about bunker gear, it's about leadership, innovation, and creating change when everyone else is still busy talking about it at the kitchen table. So let's finish what we started.

Speaker: Welcome to the Keep the Promise Podcast, where we help build resilient and well-rounded firefighters.

TJ: Do you see your approach to Firefighter Physical Fitness being different from most run of the mill approaches to it?

Ryan: I'll say I have my purview on it, um, like everybody does. So when it comes to something like firefighter fitness, it, that again is like a very high level, um, analysis and understanding of something firefighting as far as like fitness, performance, um, and health. And, uh, basically that in like a bubble, if you're gonna look at that from a exercise physiology, physiology, a coaching lens, um, an athletic development lens, it's complex because you're not just trying to develop one attribute.

A lot of sports kind of fall into the area of like. You know, more or less similar developmental needs, um, for the sport. So like football, you need strength, explosiveness. And then depending on the, the position they play, they might need a little bit more top end speed or a little bit more strength, like alignment, but you're pretty much running, doing some kind of throws and lifting along with practicing your sport.

So firefighting is kind of similar to CrossFit in the sense of you need a lot of different de uh, development in physiological areas. You need good aerobic fitness, you need good anaerobic fitness, you need good strength. Um, and developing those things all at once is not ideal. So you kind of need to look at it as the overarching theme of what firefighters need.

And when it comes to that, I basically just break it down into the simplest terms is you need to work out if we're doing. You know, three days a week or four days a week or something, you need have to have a couple days where you're doing long steady endurance type training where I can talk to you.

We're in that, you know, zone two, zone three type of, uh, development where you're doing something for an extended period of time. And then second, you need to do something that gets you extremely outta breath. So huffing puffing on the floor, dying, like your lung's about to cough up outta your throat. And then third, you need to do some kind of resistance training where the muscles are going to failure.

Um, and then within that, doing some kind of explosive work. So jumps, throws, things of that nature. So we're really doing everything. It's just how do you want to period periodize it and program it. And then you also have to look at the individual firefighter. I myself am, you know, 250 pounds. I competed in Power League for a long time.

I am very much overdeveloped in the strength side of what a firefighter needs. Whereas one of my, uh, good friends and chiefs of the department, he was qualified for the Boston Marathon. So you're not gonna take both of us and put us on the exact same training program. It would make no sense. So you have the general outlook of do something steady state for a long time, do some high intensity aerobic or high intensity training where you're out of breath and dying, and then do some kind of resistance training.

As long as those bases are getting covered, you really then have to look at it as the individual and providing proper coaching for them and programming. And that's one of the things where I think the fire service messes up a lot, is it's just such a generic cookie cutter program just thrown up on the board.

And I see it all the time, and it's like the WA of the day or this or that, which I. I kind of talk outta both sides of my mouth with this 'cause it's like I don't want to put a barrier on exercise in the fire service. Like I want guys to work out. So it's like, whatever you want to do, I'm fine with that.

Please, like, do not think that I'm dis promoting any kind of exercise. Um, it's just that I'm probably more of a snob looking at it from like a, a higher end level where I would like guys to have one on, not one-on-one coaching, but have somebody observing them. Because a lot of time it's movement strategies also.

And if guys aren't moving properly while they're trying to overload and make a physiological adaptation, like doing a CrossFit workout with as many rounds as possible with, you know, burpees, um, muscle ups, hand cleans, things of that nature where you can get hurt doing that, you have to figure out what the risk first reward ratio is and then you have to start them off in an appropriate like category.

So, long story short, there's a lot of things that you can look at and have maybe like general principles, um, the. F to train F to T. It's a, I think it's a international, it's an IAFF initiative. I think so, like fitness to trainer or something like that. They put on a very good class for firefighters trying to teach them to be coaches and like educate their, um, fire department on how to train and exercise.

So there's programs out there like that that provide really, really good foundational education stuff and tools for guys. Um, and then at the end of the day, you have to just be a coach or have somebody that knows how to do it, watch you and make sure you're doing the proper dosage of an activity and you're not gonna hurt yourself.

Because at the end of the day, if you're on workman's comp, the workout didn't help you. It hurt you, and we don't want that either. So it's a really fine balancing act. I hope that that didn't answer your question at all, but

TJ: No. I mean, hell, you, you pissed off all the CrossFitters by calling it the wat of the day.

Ryan: yes, a lot of the day that's like writ writ team. The writ team?

TJ: the pat tag where

the, yeah, we'd love that. But it's.

Ryan: there is one. There is one more thing with, um, I, I like, I like talking about this, uh, study in particular because, um, we, we brought up CrossFit. So University of Kentucky, Dr. Mark Abel, he's done, he's been working with firefighters forever. He was also a volunteer firefighter. Awesome, awesome dude. Love his work.

He, um, did some studies out there and they had looked at firefighters that worked out, um, and then compared it to firefighters that didn't work out while doing basically a fire ground. Um, like not activity, but like a combat challenge, but more skillset type thing. So some, something like that. Um, and the guys that performed, the, the guys that worked out on shift, they performed a 15 minute workout, something like that, which was.

Not terrible. It was like a bent barbell row for 30 seconds, rest over, I press 30 seconds. Um, so it was like a generic bodybuilding type thing with some treadmill work in there. Nothing that was over overly taxing, good little workout. They did it prior to doing the combat Challenge was, for lack of a better term, and then the guys that didn't work out at all just did the combat challenge with no workout preceding it.

So the guys that did the workout were actually 70% faster than, or they were faster than 70% of the guys who were fresh going through the combat challenge alone. And then they were like, all right, cool. This is like obviously showing that like you should exercise, uh, because even if you're fatigued, they're still quicker than 70% of the guys who were just sitting on their ass.

Um, and then as he was getting into actually training the guys at the department. They were getting tones and then they were having to go to respond to calls while he was in person training them. And he was like, he looks over at his, his partner and they're like, do you think we're doing the right thing?

Like some of them look pretty gassed when they're going out for these calls. Like, I wonder if it's safe, like the amount of intensity we're doing right here. So they follow up and do another study. And this time they did a CrossFit, uh, type workout where they did an am wrap for the equal amount of time of, as the first workout, 15 minutes or whatever.

Same idea, rower, deadlifts, cleans, uh, all these things that are, that are high intensity and you're, you're not stopping, you're just going, going, going. They did the test again 10 minutes after the workout and 60 minutes after the workout, 10 minutes after the workout. The firefighters were 50% slower than their original times.

So you're seeing that they're having a detrimental effect on the individual, even if those guys are in shape. So. You're able to complete the task. They're still faster than, you know, most of the guys that are not working out, but they're 50% slower, like for their own time. So you're doing something almost at half speed.

So you see a negative effect there. And then finally, when they did it 60 minutes post workout, their times where I think only 10% slower. So it's like reasonable ish, but that took an hour to recover from a 15 minute hard amrap workout. So what I like to tell guys is basically know where your red line is, like applying this is know where your red line is.

Don't push into your red line if you're on shift working out, like just stay below it and understand that as you develop qualities of physical fitness that raise your your floor, you're going to be able to do harder things and recover from them quicker, but you still cannot push your your own red line, if that makes sense.

TJ: So basically leave the red lining for an actual call,

Ryan: Yes. Yeah.

TJ: get workouts. And get movements in at the firehouse.

Ryan: Yeah. And if you want a red line, which, you know, high intensity type stuff, just do it on your, your off day. That's all.

TJ: Yeah. Puke at your own gym. Don't puke at the firehouse. You're also the chairman of the Wellness Fitness Initiative, right?

Ryan: Yeah.

TJ: What does that entail within your

department, 

Ryan: So when 

TJ: we skip it all together? 

Ryan: no, no, no, no. Um, it's just one, it's one of those things where it's like a, it's a slow developing thing. Like most departments that are trying to make cultural change, um, and I say slow just because of, uh, how I am, like I'm get stuff done yesterday, type guy. So the, the kind of, the having to go through multiple channels and the red tape and all that is, is a slow process for me.

But. I think we started around five years ago. Um, prior to that, we had just gotten a ton of fitness equipment for all of our stations, like rogue dumbbells, up to 75 pounds. Barbells. We're very, very spoiled in that sense, where we have great equipment and our chiefs bought into it. They're like, Hey, we're gonna do this.

Let's do it right. And we've just been slowly developing like how we're doing it right and improving it every year. So since then, um, we do a biannual test every other year, so like 150 guys per, per year we're testing. So we, we split them in two. Um, and we basically go through and do the, the wellness fitness initiative, um, test more or less.

So they do a VO two max pushups, wall squats, body fat composition, all those things. Um, and then we record the data, don't have any of their names attached to it or anything. Um, and just kind of look to see what the averages are in the numbers. We don't have anything punitive for it. Like you just have to do the test.

Um, and then obviously we'll give you feedback as we're doing it in person with them. So. There has been a big shift in the culture since I started. Like most people weren't working out online. There was not really great gym equipment. I think there was mainly like a multifunctional machine at most stations.

Now we have all this great stuff. Most guys work out almost every day. Um, and it's, it's definitely a culture change. Like we, we are definitely, like, I would say, a highly physically active department. Um, and I would also say we're probably a little bit younger. We're on average, we don't have that much of a older, um, an old older age department.

We have a lot of younger, middle aged folks, so I think that that might also be a contributor to it. But I have noticed the, the increase in the desire for physical fitness, healthy lifestyle, things of that nature. Um, and I'd like to hope to think that that, that we have affected that change. And, um, it's something that our department's definitely bought into from the top down.

The chief wants to do it, and everybody's kind of, you know, gathered, gathered behind that. And is, it's been a, it's been a cool thing to see over the long term.

TJ: Dude, that's awesome. That is

phenomenal. 

Ryan: Yeah.

TJ: Especially, I mean, five years is kind of a short span of time in

Ryan: In 

TJ: fire service terms. Yeah.

Ryan: yes. Yeah, I agree. I just, you know, I'm like, I want to go coach these guys. I wanna do all this stuff. So, and we are trying to make a position for like a health and safety type guy to oversee all this stuff. So I've got, hopefully that's my intent is to, to get there and, and do that and oversee the entirety of the program.

TJ: Now when it comes to wellness, it's not just the physical side of things.

Ryan: Mm-hmm.

TJ: How do you guys address the mental health conversation, the mental health side of things within the fire service?

Ryan: Yeah. Um, and I will say, this isn't my forte per se, but I know that, I know that one of my, my good friends who's also on, uh, some of these committees with me, he is our lead on that. Um, and there's a lot of also great programs out there. For the most part, it's, you know, I know that living a healthy lifestyle helps, like exercise has been shown to be close to as effective as some, uh, pills and psychiatry and stuff like that when it's under the right context.

If somebody has a, you know, neurological disorder or a, a hormone disorder that needs to be treated. Um, but as far as everyday people getting your life straightened out, doing things that you're supposed to do, exercising, eating right, sleeping right, all of those things lay a baseline foundation for mental health and are going to help with handle things that are difficult.

Um, 'cause you're, you're building up a shield more or less of to stress. So if you have the ability to do that and be consistent with it in your lifestyle, I think that that shows or I think that that helps drastically. Um. Yeah, and exercise has just literally been shown to have reduce depression. It's, it's just wild that, that, that's such a strong driver to health and mental health, uh, um, to me.

So finding the kind of the difference, like if it's a, is it an acute PTSD thing, which we don't really see a ton of. It is definitely something more of what it is, is like burnout, from my understanding, from hearing some of the, the psychologists speak and the burnout component of it, uh, is something where the entire department needs to kind of get together and understand, like you've got your, your brothers and sisters that you can talk to and like try and troubleshoot and figure out problems.

And then the department, the office and the executive staff, like they need to figure out what is causing some of this burnout. Like, are these guys working double time? All the time do, are they just on the rescue constantly, nonstop. Are they getting woken up for tones to calls that they're not going to?

Like, what is what There's gonna be individual things in every single department that they need to hone in on and figure it out for themselves. And I think that that's gonna make all the difference in the world. Like again, you can take these gen general tools, work out, sleep, right. You know, try and be mindful, get off your phone sometimes, uh, bond with your, your fellow firefighters and, and the fire department and build a, a community and a, and a, a friendship and a family.

And then you also have to figure out the acute variables that are bringing down the department at, at their own individual level.

TJ: That sounds like a. Word for word playbook on how to implement that wellness culture within a department.

Ryan: Oh, nice. 

TJ: folks, as you're listening, take note.

It's not just a physical side, it's, it's, it's a multifaceted approach, but always relying on that physical foundation.

Ryan: Yes. Coming from the meathead.

TJ: Yeah. Like, this is the smartest meathead I've ever talked to. Whatever creatine you're taking must have like brain chemicals or some shit, man. It's at, uh, what do we call that? Carb fuck.

Ryan: Carbo something.

TJ: Yeah. Wow. There goes that product idea.

Ryan: Oh, 

TJ: I've have written that down. My, my indie rock band name is gone.

Ryan: how are you gonna be a plate? How are you gonna be a rock star now?

TJ: I need to learn how to play something first. So. Let's, one of my, the most fascinating things that I get to do on this podcast is talk to fellow entrepreneurs because I love the firefighter mindset and I love the entrepreneurial mindset. And combining both of 'em is always so eye-opening because of the way that we approach the world versus Joe Schmo off the street who started his own little business. So I wanna dig into a couple of these things, starting with the idea phase, with the ideation. We are good at solving problems around the kitchen table and saying, this sucks. This is awful. Somebody should do this, somebody should change it. And much like our indie rock band name, it all just fades away into the ether. How did you go from idea to action? Like when did you say, you know what? Fuck it. This is what we're gonna do and this is how we're gonna do it.

Ryan: Yeah. Um, dude, honestly, it's like what you said before, you know, elephants, eating tigers, just one bite at a time. Just kidding. I did that backwards on purpose. So

TJ: They're, they're herbivores man.

Ryan: the herbivores, um, you just need, dude, I am, like I said, I, I invested the time and energy into making sure that it made sense, and I was like, I see this. It's a problem. We need a solution. I am in a place in my life right now where I'm like, I feel like I can dedicate, you know, the time and energy, um, to developing it.

And I wanted to go through it and actually execute on it. And that's, execution is something that I'm just, um, I'm a very big believer in like, not to, you know, uh, you know, suck on Jocko or anything or any of those dudes, but making sure that like your. Not just talking about things like you're walking the walk and you're executing it.

Like you can have the best game plan in the world and go into a fight and like have this strategy to do all this and do all that. And like as soon as you get, you get punched in the face, you know, it's all out the window. So you just have to start doing things one day at a time. And I think the first thing that, obviously the first thing I did was, like I said, research.

Okay, cool. The idea's solid, it makes sense. Like I am, I'm okay with, with putting so much of my time and energy and, and my finances, personal finances into the development of this. Um, it's something that I think is worthwhile. So I bought a set of bunker gear and old set of bunker gear off eBay. Um, and I hunted for a while to find somebody who could help me do this.

'cause I don't know, I didn't know anything about any of this stuff. Like literally I was a coach, I was a firefighter. Like I did not know anything about fabrics, about clothes, nothing. So. I found a lady in North Florida who does like army, military type tech prototype things. Um, and I contacted her. I was like, Hey, this is my idea.

I want to, to try this out. She's like, cool, send me that set of gear. I'm going to cut it up and basically tear it down. And she's gonna basically re uh, re rebuild it from the broken down parts with her, her own fabric and material. So I didn't know any of what the material was. She made this list of what fabrics and materials she used, how much of it she made this, um, a, uh, blueprint for it.

Like literally what you would like, draw on a clear, a clear piece of plastic. All of these, uh, diagrams of where to cut this and how to cut that. And then we updated it to a CAD system through another lady that she was connected with who was kind of like the, the middle man connector from prototype to getting it to manufacturing.

She introduces me to a manufacturer in Los Angeles. Um, Bev, she's awesome. She does a great job. We've been working with her for like two years now, and they took the CAD and we made seven sets, I think was our first, uh, batch run of bunker gear. We made seven sets, different sizes, and that was kind of, uh, the first year of it maybe.

Um, so yeah, it was just one day at a time, man. I was like learning stuff on the fly, still learning stuff every single day. Um, we've had some expensive lessons. I've, I've definitely kicked my own ass a couple times and, uh, eventually we just finally figure something out where you're like, okay, I kinda like where this is headed.

It looks, it looks good.

TJ: What were some of those expensive lessons?

Ryan: Oh, there was a few, um, one, one of them was probably the first big batch of gear that we ran. So we made those seven sizes. All, everything. So remember, everything was based off of my, the, a size, a size set of gear that fit me. So when we went to to Bev the first time, we're like, Hey, we want to do six or seven sizes, whatever it was.

And she's like, all right, cool. I'll, you know, make it based off of your gear. Scaled off your gear. So it went a little bit up and it went a little bit down. Well, the smallest set of gear we made was a 40 inch waist. And I'm like, well that's not gonna cut it. Like, so we worked with her on that to, to then scale the next round.

Um, and I think, I forget how something happened to where, of the inside waste. The way that you communicate and the way that she builds stuff is they look at the, the exterior. Whereas when you measure somebody, you're looking at their direct measurements.

TJ: Right.

Ryan: So we had the jacket down, the jacket I'd figured out.

I'm like, all right, it's basically plus 10 inches is the exterior circumference that she needs. Well, for some reason the waist escaped me and we were like two inches off. So our 40 inch waist pants were 38 inches. So I really had like a medium and a half instead of a large. Um, and then, so it was basically like that.

So that was expensive, and for the most part it still fit most guys, but I'd have to size them up sometimes. So there's just random things of that nature and you know, 

TJ: You, you created a true sch medium by

Ryan: uh, yes, so lessons learned, and then I'm sure there's others, but sometimes you just have to bend over and, you know, fork out your wallet and just move on and learn the lesson.

TJ: not where I thought you were going with that. So you start getting this gear out to firefighters. What reactions were you getting and did any of 'em surprise you either on like the good or bad end of the spectrum when it comes to reactions?

Ryan: Most of them were all very positive. Um, we sold actually two of the f the one of the very first, I think it might've been the first. No, it was, I think the second set we ever sold was to one of my good friends at work. Um, and then, uh, it was, I think two or three guys at work bought an, um, another guy from, uh, South Carolina who's awesome.

And most of the feedback was actually, it's really hot. And I was like, oh shit, okay. I'm like, well, we, you know, we accomplished our goal. And some of 'em were like, I think it might be hotter than my normal gear. And I was like, oh shit, okay. Like, maybe it's too much. So that was probably the first feedback we got and everything.

I mean, everything was very good. It was, it feels like gear. It's awesome. It's, it's very, uh, it's heavy, it's bulky, like it does everything that we want it to do. So that was the great feedback on that end. Um, and then, yeah, we actually scaled down the inner liner thickness from those first. Few units that we'd made over time.

Um, we might even have room to make it even a little bit, um, not more breathable, but, uh, it's fine where it's at right now. We could make it a little bit more breathable if I want to or not, but we'll, we'll play with that as we, as we go here. But right now it's, it's solid. It's, it's hot enough to where it's, it's slightly hotter than normal bunker gear.

You're gonna get the thermal acclimation and you're gonna be sweating. So every time I do a video and film something, I'm already like perspirating a little bit, just standing '

TJ: cause you're in Florida, bro, the humidity is

Ryan: That, that too. Mm-hmm.

TJ: Have you had apartments purchase bulk orders?

Ryan: Um, what was it we had, what have we made? We've done over 200 units, I want to say the majority of the bulk orders we're doing are actually being go sent out right now. Um, they're wrapping up production right now on I think 130 units. So yeah, we've done over 200. We're wrapping up production on like 130.

I think we're selling 120 of them. I think. Seven, 10 or 12, something like that are gonna stay with us for sizing sets and things of that nature. Um, and yeah, I've sold, we've sold some to departments. I wouldn't say it, it's bulk, but like a few to the training division, a few for like things of that nature.

Um, and then everything else is kind of in motion as we speak. Yeah,

TJ: Like, I'd imagine that those departments, that field teams for the Scott Comm challenge or whatever,

might want to have their crews working out on those. So they might,

you know, they're not a bulk order, but it's a department order going to their specific guys.

Ryan: Oh yeah, yeah. Yeah. We've definitely done departments, uh, different departments for sure. Um, we've done a couple last year and then this year it's funny 'cause a lot of times these things, it just takes a while for budgets. You gotta land on the right budget cycle, it's gotta go through all these motions and things.

So like some of the gear that we're getting at right now, I want to say we started a relationship with the Department of the Firefighters like. Last year or the year prior, it's like, we've got some stuff going to Colorado, to Texas and those relationships we've had for over a year. So it's just a, you know how it is, it's, it takes a while

TJ: Why the blue gear?

Ryan: because we're crayon eaters. Dude, I can't put tan gear that's non-certified on a firefighter and expect him to not run into a training burn and get burned alive and then sue me. So it's just another layer of safety for us. Um, and for the guys, because if somebody sees a set of blue gear, the chief or the, you know, the safety officer officer or whoever's gonna be like, dude, what are you wearing?

Like, why did you grab that and throw that on, on accident? So it's really just a layer of safety. Um, and the military has like blue guns. When they do, uh, their, some of their training drills. So that was kind of what we went with, was just make it painfully obvious that it's not normal bunker gear. We do sell, uh, we can sell other, I've made like a green set of gear that looked pretty cool.

Um, gray was another, um, color that another department had brought 

TJ: feel that gray

Ryan: Yeah, it would look cool.

TJ: emasculating than the,

Ryan: Emasculating. 

TJ: the EMS Jumpsuit Blue.

Ryan: so ironically I did not know that that was a thing, like the blue EMS jumpsuit. And I don't know if I just didn't register it because our EMS, like I've seen, I guess I see guys, I don't know. I just never put the two together.

And when we made that gear, guys were like, what is this, like EMS poker gear? I'm like, what are you guys talking about? I'm like, no. So yeah, that is, uh, something that we've, I've had to deal with. I'm like, oh, I don't know. I didn't, I didn't know that was a thing. So,

TJ: Dude. Get that gray shit out there. Like get it, get it produced.

Ryan: uh.

TJ: Interesting. How long does it take to manufacture one set of gear? Like if I win and I place the order right now, when can I be getting sweaty with it?

Ryan: It really depends. I mean, if we've got all of the material set up ready to go, well, it also depends if I have it in stock. If I've got it in stock, I just send it out. So that's happened to a few guys. Um, and that's awesome. I love when we can do that. And then aside from that, if we have to build an order, it depends where we're at with material wise.

Um, and our manufacturer is awesome. So depending on how many units we manufacture, they are gonna scale their team to meet those needs. Right? So 50 is really our minimum for like any kind of bulk discount. So the gear starts at $1,500, drops down to a thousand, and that's because they can start, uh, making things more efficient on their end because.

If they make seven sets of gear, 10 sets of gear, it's gonna take them as long to make 10 sets of gear as it makes them, takes them to make 50 if she can scale out. So you've got price breaks at like 50, a hundred, 200 plus or something like that. So we've got a few different price breaks, but more or less it would be if everything's ready sitting there to go and I just say, you know, send it, they're probably around three months, um, give or take.

So it's not terrible. Uh, oftentimes like this last order, and I apologize to anybody that's listened to this, this last order had been pushed back multiple times just from getting material in. Um, and then also people hopping on. Every time we're about to execute on it, they're like, oh, well we're gonna buy some more.

We're gonna buy some more. So it kind of kicked the can down the road a little bit. And then we got, uh, this is, it's always as far as like entrepreneurship stuff that you like, never expect. Some of our fabric was separated at port. After they x-rayed the, the box, so, or the crate that it came in. So you're not expecting that.

I didn't even know it got separated and neither did my manufacturer. And like half of our duck cotton shows up like a month later versus all the other stuff that got delivered. So there's just things that like, you are literally outta your control and you're just rolling your eyes when things like that happened and you're like, I don't know.

I'm sorry guys. I can't even make this stuff up. I wish I had a, a concrete story for you that was, that made sense, but

TJ: Yeah. Reality is oftentimes a lot stranger than fiction. Some of the shit that happens in the business world, you're like, listen, this just happened. I didn't believe it either, but I'm going through it. I don't know what to tell you.

Ryan: mm-hmm.

TJ: In the process of developing, getting this gear into the hands of firefighters, has there ever come a time that you had to make a compromise in, in what you make and how it aligns to your values?

Ryan: I don't think so. Um, some of the things that, I mean, we do get pushback on the color quite often as far as like guys like, well, yeah, yeah, yeah, that's an obvious one. But like, well, you know, I want black gear. I'm like, I'm not making you black gear unless it, so we do make PIO gear is what I call it for like a public infor education officer.

There's no inner liner in it, so it's literally just like a thin coat. So I'm like, guys aren't gonna think like they're gonna put this on immediately and they're gonna know it's not bunker gear. So I'm fine with that. But yeah, there's a lot of guys that wanted, you know, different colors and I'm like, I, I understand.

Like, I get it. It's just not happening. Um, I apologize. But no, I don't think we've had any like thing, like I said, we've definitely learned some lessons. There's been communication errors where I would have done things differently with, uh, some buyers in the past, but as far as that's concerned, you know, we try to do the best that we can.

Um, and it is a developing, it was a developing product for sure back then. Um, and you. Live and learn. And then we're always trying to make small tweaks to it and make it a little bit better. Uh, as we go in every single batch that we make, we usually tweak something and make it, we try and listen to the customer feedback, right?

So there's things where guys give you information, you're like, oh yeah, like, I didn't even think about that, or, that hasn't happened to me. 'cause I can't replicate every single training scenario that every that somebody's gonna do under every circumstance. It's just not gonna happen. Um, so like one of the things that we did was move the reflective tape on the pants up a little bit higher on the, the pan, uh, the bottom of the pants so that it's not on the very bottom there.

So it's not being scraped and, uh, scratched up as you're dragging guys doing some kind of, uh, mayday or, or man down drill to, to drag 'em out. So it's very small stuff like that. But I haven't had to make any compromises with things. I mean, we, the company is consistent of myself. Um, my partner Zach, who's a firefighter out in Scottsdale, and my other good friend who is a retired Air Force guy, um, he's also in Tampa here with me.

So. We've done this as, you know, good friends, best friends, and our values are our values. Like, we're always going to put those things first in, in the mission first. And at the same time, uh, you know, you're trying to operate a company and the cold side of things is like, which hasn't come to that at all.

But we've almost had, I've almost had to shut down. Like there's to a point where're, like, I don't know if this is gonna financially, like if I have to keep breathing life into it, it's not gonna be sustainable. Um, it has to breathe on its own. So there's a point in the day where if you're running a company in a business.

It has to make money on its own. It has to grow up and it has to do its thing. So if it's not doing that, then the market doesn't want it. And that's something that's reality and that you have to listen to that. Um, but you just have to also make sure that you are executing on your tasks and doing things like making sure the product is solid, making sure guys understand how to use it, making sure marketing's there, making sure that you're continuing to grow with the mission and all these things.

So yeah, we're, uh, we stand on trying to do the right thing, uh, at all times. And if we fall short, then we're gonna try and make it right the best we can.

TJ: Now coming from the fire service world into entrepreneurship, you've had to change how you think. What has been one of the biggest mind shifts that have taken place?

Ryan: It's funny, dude, because I think I'm the opposite. I think that when I came into the fire service, I was very. Surprised and shocked at kind of some of the cultural, I don't wanna say not everybody's lazy. Um, and then you definitely 

TJ: my God. We're pissing off everyone today.

Ryan: not everybody's lazy and you definitely have different, um, ages of guys, guys that are, you know, half of it out the door, which it's all understandable, like I get it.

Um, but I didn't really think that, uh, it's kinda the same thing as the WFI stuff. Like I just don't see forward progress as quickly enough sometimes. And that's really what grinds my gears as I'm like, Hey, this is clearly a problem. Why are we not doing something about it immediately instead of, it just seems to take so long with so much of this stuff.

And that's something that I had always thought was, it's just kind of a problem of, of anything that's a large entity with it, whether it's a city, county, uh, country, like you just run into roadblocks that are, it's hard to move big wheels. Um, so. E everything I've always done has basically just been one day at a time, like you said, and I've kind of had to, to understand that better in the fire service, that this is a large wheel to turn and you just have to keep cranking on it a little bit every day.

It's, uh, it's not gonna be something that's an overnight fix at all. It, like we had put in for, we've, we've been trying, we had been trying to get a individual tone system for the rooms to where you're able to select what apparatus you're on. I think I put in for that in 2017, and we just got it installed this year.

So it's one of those things where that's not my style. I just like, and I get it, you have budgets, you have all these things. It's not my job. I, I don't know the complexities that come behind that, just the same way that somebody does. And I understand the complexities of running this business. So there's all these little things that you just kind of have to take with a grain of salt and move on.

And I just continue to raise my hand and try and be helpful. And then also. You know, giving them the, the appropriate or the giving them as much information and doing as much footwork as possible when you want things to be changed, that always helps. So instead of being like, Hey, this is an idea, and then you don't do anything about it, that is, uh, not a recipe for success, typically

TJ: I used to say that getting anything done on the fire service is like trying to steer the Titanic with a Popsicle stick.

Ryan: with a Popsicle stick.

TJ: Because you're like, I think I'm doing something, but we're still going the same exact direction as we were, and all of us have that short feedback loop. if it doesn't happen immediately we're like, this is bullshit.

Ryan: Yep.

TJ: So looking ahead at the next five to 10 years, what does success for CARNA look like? Is

it growth, impact, partnerships, a movement? What is it?

Ryan: yeah, man. Hopefully all the above. Um. We've got some, I've got some partnership thing maybe in my scope a little bit. We'll see. Um, it might help us do some DOD and like, uh, department of Defense type military stuff to get very compliant. Um, that would be cool if we can do that. That is a goal of mine. Um, overall, my, my big picture goal with this stuff is, like I said, it is kind of the cancer crusade, you know, air quotes.

So this is just a tool that falls under that and I hope that it is as successful as I believe it will be or should be. Um, but the overall mission is really to help reduce cancer in the fire service. And that is going to be a big picture approach, a systemic approach, um, to try and eliminate some of the things that we've been doing that are not helpful to firefighters, health and longevity.

So the mission is, is hopefully that, uh, to make sure that we're educating guys along the way and that this type of information and application is spread through the fire service. Um, and it gets into the hands of guys that are movers and that make changes. So. You know, if you, what was it? Henry Ford, they, uh, asked him, uh, if he had made what the people want.

He said they would've been still riding horses. So I think a lot of that is also synonymous to the fire service in that sense of they didn't want training gear, nobody else did it. And I'm like, well, you know what? This makes sense and I think that we should move towards it. And then eventually, in 10 years or 15 years, if it's common standard and common practice, the new guys coming in are gonna be like, oh, you guys didn't have training gear that was, you know, not dirty and contaminated through frontline firefighting . I can't believe you guys didn't do that. Like, why would you not do that? That doesn't even make sense. So that's my goal. I want to improve the fire service for all the guys coming up before us and try and make it, you know, better than, better than we found it. So I think it's something that's, that you can ac that we can accomplish as a fire service and try and just keep spreading that mo that mess.

Mission and message.

TJ: One final question that I did not put on the list,

Ryan: Hmm.

TJ: it's, it's my favorite question to ask at the end. What failure do you cherish the most?

Ryan: Hmm. Damn. I don't even know. I hate failing. Um, I God, dude, there's so many. That's funny. Failing. Definitely not being a cop was a, a good one. That was a good failure. Um, I guess, you know what, this, and this one does hurt me a little bit 'cause failing. I love power lifting and I love strength sports and I love, you know, being an athlete, um, I don't wanna say I fell with that, but hurting my, injuring myself enough to where I couldn't continue to go down the path that I was, where I was competing multiple times a year.

That was my, my entire life, right. Taking a step back from that allowed me to get the graduate degree, start the company, do all of these things. And I really do not know if I would've had the bandwidth or the want to do all of this stuff, um, if I wasn't still pursuing my own, um, athletic pursuits, you know, selfishly in, in that own selfish way, um, for self-development.

So I think that's a good, that's the, the greatest failure I've had so far, for sure.

TJ: Ryan Conley from CARNA Bunker Gear, my friend. Thank you so much for the last hour and so many minutes. This

has been eye-opening you. Yeah, you hit me with a lot of stuff that I had no idea I was even gonna talk about, and I'll be forever thankful for your continued cancer crusade and you doing the stuff that needs to be done for fitter firefighters and healthier firefighters.

Ryan: Yes. 

TJ: So Thank you for coming onto the podcast.

Ryan: No, thank you for having me on. Um, I appreciate anybody that allows me to talk about this stuff and to, to nerd out with them and, uh, to have fun while we're doing it. So I appreciate your time and I appreciate you inviting me on.

TJ: Where do we find you?

Ryan: Um, so we're pretty active on Instagram. We've got current bunker gear.

We try and post educational content, um, as well 'cause that is obviously a, a very important thing to me. We have our website, carna bunker gear.com. Um, there's a few articles I've written that are up on there as well. Uh, one of them actually talks about some of those, uh, the CrossFit workout study type things.

Um, so there's educational stuff up on there. And we have an email, car bunker gear gmail.com. So all three of those are probably the primary ways to contact us. Um, and if you guys have any questions on things, please feel free to reach out to us and we will do our best to, to answer your questions.

TJ: My man. Thank you so much.

Ryan: Thank you, sir.