082. The Boiling Frog Problem: How Trauma Creeps Up on Us in the Fire Service [Part 1]

You swore to protect others — but when was the last time you checked in on yourself?

Brad Schriefer, a third-generation firefighter and mental health advocate, shares his raw journey through trauma, peer support, and post-traumatic growth. With over two decades in the service, Brad brings gritty honesty and real solutions to the emotional weight we carry.

This isn’t about being soft. It’s about staying strong enough to show up tomorrow.

What You’ll Learn:

• Why “it’s okay to not be okay — but not okay to stay not okay” hits harder than you think
• How to spot the early signs that your crew (or you) are going sideways
• Simple ways to make mental fitness part of academy training
• Why peer support isn't a buzzword — it's a lifeline
• How to finally deal with your shit before it spills into your next shift

If you’re a firefighter who wants to lead from the front — not just in fire, but in life — this one’s for you.

Transcript

TJ: I found my old Stack-a-Palooza t-shirts the other day and I was like, how did I not die at those parties?

How did I not go to jail?

Brad: I've only heard stories of it.

TJ: And Brother Reality was worse than the stories. Okay, let us get started. Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the Keep the Promise podcast. I have with me here, Brett Schriefer from Anne Arundel County Fire Department. And as is true with most of these episodes, we have been riffing back and forth trying to figure out a time and a place for months.

So I am excited that we finally get to sit down and delve into the mental health aspect of the fire service. It might seem like we are hammering that topic, but what month are we in? November. November, mental Health Awareness Month, men's Mental Health Awareness Month E, all the, you're seeing all the social media posts about Check on your bros.

Check on everybody. So. We are talking about how to check on everybody. We are going to be discussing those topics, and we are gonna be candid about the post-traumatic stress, post-traumatic injury struggles that come with the profession and with life. And most importantly, how to handle them, how to grow from them, and how to recognize them in each other so we can be better firefighters.

So without further ado, Brad, welcome to the Keep the Promise Podcast.

Brad: Thanks for having me.

TJ: Thank you so much for being so patient as we figured out all the logistics. So let's start with the story you've been in for a while. How, how many years do you have in the fire service already?

Brad: I just crossed 20 years with, uh, Anne Arundel.

TJ: 20 years with Anne Arundel. Congrats.

Brad: Yeah. It's a good feeling.

TJ: Yeah. Yeah, it's kind of like, like crossing that finish line almost.

Brad: Yeah. Now I gotta figure out what I'm, what I want to be when I grow up

TJ: I'd never grow up. I mean, you can say in the fire department for 40, bro, you never have to grow up. But your history in the fire service goes back because your family has been in it for a while too. We talked about your grandfather, so tell me more about that.

Brad: So actually, uh, both of my grandfathers were volunteers in Anne Arundel County. Um, they had over 65 years each when they passed away. Uh, and they were still pretty active with their volunteer companies. My dad started in Anne Arundel County, uh, moved to the Eastern shore and continued to volunteer. He had, you know, over 55 years when he passed away.

Uh, my brother and I volunteer or volunteered. My brother works for Dover Air Force Base. I've been with Anne Arundel for 20 years. So really we just grew up with it. And, you know, the, the older listeners can remember the Rescue 9 1 1 show, and that was, that was gospel. Like, we had to watch it as kids. If we missed it, it was, it was a bad day.

So, uh, I mean, I remember being a kid running around the firehouse and, you know, paling around with all the older guys and, you know, just looked up to 'em and couldn't wait to do it. And then really in high school I found out like, I could do this for a job. Like they're gonna pay me to do this. And, uh, you know, there was no turning back.

It was, that's what I wanted to do.

TJ: It is interesting that you mentioned going back so far in generations within your family because as the years progress and we start getting, you know, the, the younger members in the fire department. Not all of 'em, a high number of them did not grow up wanting to do this, right. We all watch Backdraft, we all watch Emergency, um, rescue me like we had to sit down half of my shift and show them the first episode of Rescue Me because they hadn't seen it.

And it was fascinating watching the, the folks who have been around for a while and they were like, oh, this is kind of too real. And the new folks being like, this is so cool. Like, they're out there, you know, drinking and fucking and fighting and this is so much fun. And you're like, yeah, give it a couple years, bro.

Like it, that's gonna be your life and it's not gonna be fun. But it's fascinating how we have had that shift in the culture, whereas before you had the lifers, you had those who had grown up in the fire service. And nowadays we are seeing a lot more of off the street people. And nothing against that like that.

We, we need new blood, we need new perspectives. It seems to that the balance is shifting. How does your perspective, having been that guy who grew up in the fire, in the fire service, how does that perspective mold you as you are, and as we'll talk about leading new firefighters in dealing with them who don't have that sort of like built in knowledge and love for the fire service.

Brad: I mean, I guess the easiest way is, uh, like trying to relate it to like sports. You know, I grew up playing baseball, um, and we have a friend from England and he was just here a few months ago. And we're trying to teach him the game of baseball while we're watching it. And he's like, all right, well what about that?

What about this? And it's like, come on, dude. Like know the game. So, and, and again, not his fault. He, he wants to learn. He's teaching me rugby on the fly and like, I don't understand any of the rules except for throw it backwards and hit hard. And he's like, yeah, but there's more to it. And so that's, that's where I get some of that understanding.

So you get somebody who doesn't know anything about the fire department, especially in the training atmosphere that, all right, let's stretch a line. And they're like, A what? A hose line. Why don't you call it a hose line? Because we just call it a line, you know? And then when you have to explain to 'em what a plug is, a plug, why don't you just call it a hydrant?

Well, there's a historical reason for that. And you know, so like I, I grew up with just that nuance and that vocabulary that was second nature. And I, I use it twofold, right? So I have to explain it to them, but then now I have to really understand the why. I have to understand all that behind it. So it really reinforces some of those, those terms and those skills and the history and just all the stuff that we talk about. You know, now I have to explain it to them as a beginner. So it's, uh, it, it can be frustrating, but now you have to really show your passion for this, this line of work and what we're doing. And once they see that, then they can start buying into it and they can start understanding it. So it's, it's a twofold, you know?

TJ: I think it was Richard Feynman who said that if you cannot explain a topic to a five-year-old, then you do not understand it.

Brad: Yeah.

TJ: it is so true because one, I've been the one who keeps asking the why's and why do we do this? What does it mean? What does it make sense? And you can sometimes hit that breaking point with your mentor where they're like, I don't fucking know.

It's just what we do. And I think they get upset because you just showcase that they may not know it as well. And. So I like, I like your approach of, of taking it as a, as a two-way street where you have to really, truly understand what you're talking about in order to better explain it to somebody who has no idea about it,

Brad: Exactly.

TJ: which is gonna serve you well. 'cause you're gonna be heading to the training academy, right?

Brad: Yeah. Looking forward to it. New challenges?

TJ: Okay. What do you think the challenges are gonna be there?

Brad: Well, immediately, uh, there's only five of us, which is, is new. Uh, we typically would run. You know, close to 10 or 12 RTO staff. Um, the theory is we're running a smaller class, so we don't need as many on-duty people, uh, full-time people. Um, so far our team looks really good. Uh, they're, we've got some newer people to the department and, uh, they, they don't come with a ton of instructor experience, uh, at least fire service instructor.

You know, one of my, one of my RTOs, she's taught, uh, gym classes and, you know, power lifting. And she's, she's taught just not firefighters. Uh, the other one, he comes from the Navy. He did a lot of stuff. He, he told me, I did your job in the Navy. And I'm like, okay, great. I'm gonna learn stuff from you. Uh, but he brings that militaristic mindset of, I'm the new guy, I'm brand new.

You're in charge. You got 20 years. I listen, you talk. And I'm like, ah, that's, that's not gonna work too well. I need you to speak up and. Especially if you have leadership skills, like, teach me something, you know, I'm just, 'cause I got 20 years and I'm a captain, doesn't mean I can't learn from you. Um, so initially just getting those, those first time jitters out, that's gonna be tough.

Uh, just getting them comfortable teaching, being in front of a recruit class, being in front of the new people and, and really taking charge. That's, that's gonna be the, I don't wanna say struggle, but, um, you know, that'll be the hardest part, getting them spun up and, and ready. But now it, it'll be challenging.

But, uh, I, I'd describe it as like raising kids. It's the most stressful, challenging, and rewarding part in your career

TJ: I assume you have experience with that. Huh?

Brad: with kids or being an instructor.

TJ: With kids. With kids.

Brad: I, I do, uh, I have two daughters and my wife has one. So 17, 16, and 13.

TJ: Oh my God, the teens. Yeah.

Brad: All, all girls.

TJ: Talk about somebody that's gonna try your patients asking why, and if they don't understand it, they're gonna be like, well, I don't like it. I don't understand it.

Brad: Yeah. Yeah. You hit the nail on the head.

TJ: Well, I think when it comes to family life and the fire service life, your approach of being open-minded is a bit of a superpower, especially in a traditionally, I have 20 years, I shall speak and nobody shall challenge me. And I think it's that openness about everything that brought us here. Because you reached out after I talked to Ralph and you were measuring, we were kind of going back and forth on peer support system, all that stuff, and, and you're open about your own struggles, your own diagnosis.

Brad: Uh, journey. I like

TJ: You're an, oh, that's even better. Yeah, I like it. We'll change it to that journey. A journey, a transformational journey.

Brad: There you go.

TJ: So tell me about it. Was there. I will tell you that for me, the moment that I pulled the trigger, oh God, horrible analogy. The moment that I decided to, um, to seek help, professional help, it was, it was crystal clear.

So it was that, that it was an inflection point. Whereas for some others in their journey, it just kind of builds up, builds up, and then suddenly they're on a different path with when they're seeking help. Did you have that one turning point or was it a gradual, like increase in the heat? Increase in the pressure and you said, I'm gonna start kind of leaning a different direction.

Brad: So I like how you use increasing the heat and uh, one of the analogies I like to use with peer support and, you know, post-traumatic stress or just stress in general. There's a, it's called boiling frog syndrome and. It's exactly that, right? So let's, let's use the frog as, as the firefighter and the water is trauma.

You put that firefighter or put the frog over boiling water, it tries to get away, right? So that could be like one giant significant thing that, that scares the absolute shit out of us and it scares us out of the fire department, or it turns us down a bad road. Or you put the frog in room temperature water and you slowly heat it up, you expose it to little trauma and more little trauma, and the frog just naturally adjusts to this warm water until finally the water's too hot.

And it's like, well, I can't get out now. Like I've adjusted this much. And you know, so I, I would say that my journey, I was the frog in the water getting warmer and warmer and, you know, come to find out I was actually making the water warmer on myself, and it just got to a point that the water was so hot and I'm like. What, what the fuck am I doing? What am like this? This is getting worse and worse and worse, but I'm just sitting here adjusting to it rather than getting out of the water or turning the water down, like Einstein's Law of Insanity. I just kept doing the same stuff, expecting a different outcome you know, I, I just, I just had this epiphany and, uh, actually it was, it was my daughter's that I guess inadvertently staged that intervention.

Uh, so I was, when I, when I started really diving into it, went through EAP, was sitting with a counselor. Uh, we only get four sessions there. The end of my fourth session, I'm like, alright, now what do I do? I can't. I gotta figure the next step out and I don't know what it is. And, uh, I remember asking my daughters, they were probably like seven and three and uh, it was one night just before bed.

I asked them, I'm like, have you ever been afraid of me when I get angry? And I just watched them well up with tears in their eyes and all, all my oldest, all she could do is just shake her head Yes. And I'm like, like, what the fuck am I doing? Like, my kids are afraid of me. Like at this point I'm a single dad.

Like, what am I doing? I'm supposed to be their protector and teach 'em and you know, show them the ways of life so they could be productive people and they're not listening to me. So like, my life's in shambles, my kids hate me. That, that was like, okay, I'm done. And really at that point, I didn't know what done meant. You know, I was just done being that way. And, uh, you know, that's, that's kind of like the pinnacle, that was the, the tipping point that was like, all right, we're doing something like you're, you're calling everybody that's got a phone to figure this out. What's the next step?

TJ: It is so important that you realize that you had agency, not just in making the water hot, but in turning the heat down yourself. And I think one of the issues, well, I don't wanna say an issue, but one of the struggles that comes with dealing with this stuff is that feeling of being a cornered animal like I am here, I can't do anything.

Everything just keeps piling on. I'm hopeless. It's that, that sense of hopelessness and realizing that yes, you might be in that corner, but you can step to one side. You might be in boiling water, but you can reach out and turn that knob down. Maybe not off all the way, but you can turn it down. And especially if you're going through.

Self-harming behavior, self-destructive behavior, drugs, alcohol, womanizing, whatever you want to call it. You can at least not add that fuel to the flame and start lowering down the temperature. So you got to the point where you said, I'm done. Then what? What was, what was the step? What was your mo, how did you turn that heat down?

How did you step away from that corner so you were no longer that cornered animal?

Brad: So actually it was, uh, right after I put him to bed, uh, just I, I got on my computer and just started just searching everything. Um, at, at this point, the center of excellence was like the new and upcoming thing. So I get on their website and start just looking at every tab. I went through everything they had, and they had these surveys for PTS, for depression, anxiety, anger. They just had all these different things that I could look at. So I was like, yeah, I'll just sit and take these quizzes. Like there's no way I check all these boxes. You know, I'm a fireman, like we're, we're bulletproof. Nothing affects us. And, uh, so I do all these quizzes and like all my results are popping up, like, like new high scores.

And I was like, like, man, uh, that's not what I was looking for. But the flip side of it was like, it, it was like an outsider that was telling me like, it was, it was something validated that was like, no, dude, you, you might be kind of screwed up. So I, I called the center. It, it was probably two in the morning when I called and I talked to the guy for a little while and he's like, dude, let's get you in.

Let's get you set up. We'll do an intake, uh, or we'll do an assessment and we'll get you set up to come in. You'll be here for a month. Something like that. Uh. But at that time, insurance didn't cover it. So it was like, like I was the cornered animal that like now could come out of the corner, but now was backed up to a cliff.

I was like, you know, single father, single income. And they were like, yeah, you gotta take a month off of work and pay a couple thousand dollars to come here. And I'm like, yeah, that's, that's not an option. Um, so then, uh, you know, another good friend of mine, I guess the easiest way to say it is like, talk me into going workers' comp.

Like just that's, that's your next option. I'm like, and anybody listening to this, mostly from the fire department, like, you know, you know, there, there's always one person in every department that, that finds a way to get hurt. They have Dr. Summer off, uh, you know, they, Dr. Christmas off, like whatever it is.

Like they, they're doing it like. They get hurt all the time and they get outta work. They get the light duty spots, and it's like, I was like, dude, I'm not, I'm not gonna be that guy. I'm not doing this for a payday. I'm not doing it for time off. I'm not doing it for this. And he's like, just talk me into it.

He's like, dude, like, okay, then who are you calling next? I didn't know. And he's like, well, you're gonna call this one. I was like, man. And you know, now it's like, all right, now you're jumping more into a different stigma of like, are people gonna think he's doing it just for a payday? Are they doing it for this?

Is he doing it to get a early retirement? Is is he doing it just for like a, you know, like woe is me like bringing the attention on. And it's like, that was the furthest from the truth. But then you then, you know, all right, so like, check all the boxes for post-traumatic stress. And I'm like, what if, what if they tell me I can't come back to work?

What if they say, dude, you're done. What if they say. Uh, like, you can't be fixed. What if you're too far gone? You know, what is, is everybody at work gonna think that I can make good decisions? Are we gonna run a trauma call and I'm gonna lock up? Or we run a fire and I freeze? You know, like, these are all the things going through my mind.

I'm like, I'm, I'm not, I'm not calling. I'm not, what if all these things come true? But then it was like, my kids are afraid of me. Like, I, like, there's, there's two options. And one, one I don't want to talk about, like, you know, you have suicidal ideations. Not that I wanted to kill myself, but it was like, I mean, if I get hurt on a fire and die a hero's death, right?

That wouldn't be the worst. it's like, what really got me out of that is like, then my ex-wife really wins. Like, she, she just wins. And I'm like, I'm. I'm not taking the easy road out. I'm not doing that. I'm not letting her win that way. And like, it, it sounds funny now, like years down the road, but I was like over my dead body.

She's not, she's not out, she's not beating me on that. It's just not gonna happen. So, and like, like I said, I laugh about it now, but if that's the one thing that kept me from doing something, then like I held onto that, but I didn't know what the other option was. So, um, so I did go the workers' comp route. Um, it was, I will say they, they were great advocates. Once I got in, I talked to a medical doctor, I went to a clinic, uh, a therapist, and they were awesome. But we all know that workers' comp lawyers, they're there to make money. So like, you feel like a cash cow. But like they, they, they were like, Hey, you're going to this doctor on this day. You're going to this guy on this day, you're going here on this day. So like, they were able to make a lot of phone calls and appointments and get things squared away for me, and I didn't have to make those calls. And so there, there was, there was pluses and minuses to it, but the, the pluses grossly outweighed the negatives.

TJ: And you said this was roughly what? 10 years ago?

Brad: Uh, well, the, the, the call that kind of started it all was in 2014. Uh, and all that was maybe 20 18, 20 19, 20 18 into 19.

TJ: Okay, so six years ago, five, six years ago. You answered the question that I was gonna ask, which was, did you feel the stigma of seeking help? So let me rephrase that question to, the time since you started that healing journey, have you noticed a change in that, that feeling of stigma when it comes to, to reaching out and asking for help?

Brad: So I, I don't feel it much anymore. I'm like, I, I've become a huge proponent of this, but I think it's there, uh, it's, the easiest way to describe it is like walking out on ice. Like you, while you're standing on land, you kind of put one foot out and you're testing the ice and then you're inching out, inching out.

And then once people realize the ice holds them, they're out there doing whatever. Uh, so I think, I think everybody's getting closer. Like we're starting to see it. Everybody's starting to be a believer. And it's just taking that first step, taking that, making that first phone call, like just having that uncomfortable conversation with somebody that, uh, and, and it happened a few years ago.

Uh, I had a guy detailed in to drive the engine for me. And, uh, a friend of a mutual friend of ours was like, Hey, you know, keep an eye on him. He's, he's not been in the best head space. So I get to work early, I'm in the gym, and he comes in and he is like, Hey, you mind if I work out? And I'm like, nah, man, help yourself.

Go ahead. And he says, uh, he's like, you, you got a minute. Can I ask you a question? And I was like, yeah. And it wasn't a question, it was like a story. He just kind of unloaded all these problems. And I'm like, you know, man, I, I thank you for telling me. Like, thank you for having the courage to talk to me about that.

Like, just, yeah, he kind of dumped it on me, but I'm glad he did. 'cause if he hadn't, it would've bottled up. So like, we're getting better there that, you know. You work in these firehouses and you have these chest thumping, rah rah firemen, and they're so big and tough and they, they hold that stuff in. You trust these guys to go on fires.

You like, I trust my back step guy with my life. When we go into a fire, I should be able to come back and talk to him. He should be able to come and talk to me with that same trust. Like, I trust you with my emotions. I trust you to be me, to be vulnerable with you, and you not just, you know, destroy me for that.

So, and, and we're starting to, at least I'm starting to see it in our department that it's, it's more exponential that, you know, maybe you came and talked to me and you're like, wow, that was really great and now you're there to talk to somebody else and now they're gonna talk to two more people. And, and, and I see that growing.

I, I think it's getting a lot better, but the, the stigma's there. Um, and, and this goes back to something you brought up earlier about new people in the fire depart. So I've got, you know, over 25 years doing this. And I remember as a volunteer or, or as a little kid watching these guys, and they, they talked about all the gruesome calls that they ran, and it was like they had to one up each other.

I saw one dead body, I saw three, I saw five. And it just goes on and on. So as a little kid, like I learned that's, that's the bravado of the fire department. Like the more traumatic stuff you see, the more credibility you have when now these newer people are coming in and they don't understand that that culture from 30 and 40 years ago, that like, they don't see that bravado anymore.

So now they're a little bit easier to open up. Uh, and even the younger people that we're getting, uh, and, and this isn't talking bad about 'em, but like, okay, yeah, they're, they're more in tune with their emotions, but that's, that's not a bad thing. Like, they're now opening up and saying, man, that call really sucked.

And we're like. 30 years ago, we've said, yeah, kid, suck it up. Let's run the next one. Now it's more like, all right, what sucked about it? You know, um, that person looked like my grandmother, or it was a, you know, a dead baby, or, you know, oh man, it was just a ton of blood. And it's like, yeah, yeah, it does suck.

And, you know, just having that, that cathartic release of like, validating your emotions. So we're, we're getting there. We're getting better. We just, we need more buy-in from the boots on the ground.

TJ: It's a good transformation I think in the makeup of the people in the fire service that are more, like you said, in tune with our emotion. More willing to speak up when you're not kidding. It was a long time ago. It was just like, suck it up or you know, the usual pat you on the back, Hey, uh, if it was bad for you, just talk to somebody and you're like, okay, talk to whom.

And that leads us to the next thing that I want to talk about because we're always told to talk, to reach out to, to get ahold of Cism. And nowadays it's peer support.

I will go on the record to say that Cism is a waste of fucking time. And it's a broken system. Peer support is different. Even though my experiences with peer support were damn near as bad as Cism. But let's talk about those two. What do they, what do they have, right? What things do they get right and what things do they get wrong?

Brad: So Cism wasn't, wasn't necessarily a bad thing. I think it was just the way that, that there was no training behind it. Right. You had maybe, uh, a clinician that would come in and tell firefighters. Just let these people talk about it. And, and they, they took it from like World War I. That's where we, that's where CSM really started.

We would take guys off the front lines, bring 'em to the back, let 'em have some downtime, hit it off their chest, and then send them back to send 'em back to the front. So that's where we really started with it. But now you have, you have other, I would, I would say at this time, you know, 40 years ago, mostly men that were not emotionally intelligent, that are like, Hey man, uh, how do you feel after that call?

Well now you have two emotionally unintelligent men trying to talk about this. And they're like, no, I'm good. Okay, cool. I did my job when we know they're not good. But it's like that, that awkward conversation with your dad in the truck where nobody looks at each other and it's like, uh, okay. Just a little bit of back and forth. Uh, so Cism works. But there's gotta be more training and more research into it. And that's, that's where peer support really came through, is now you don't have to be, you know, a a, a true cism trained person, just me and you. Like we're, we get in the engine after a shitty call, we, I look over and I see, I'm like, Hey tj, you good? Nah. Yeah, I'm, I'm good man. I can see it in your face. You sure? No, I'm good. Hey, look, you know, let's get back to the firehouse and we'll chat and just pulling 'em off to the side and, you know, letting them know like, Hey man. Yeah, that, that pediatric arrest sucks. It does. It's terrible. Um, I use this analogy all the time in with peer support stuff when we go out is think of when you were in like kindergarten and the, the teacher would say, there's no stupid question. If you have that question, somebody else has that question. Same thing goes for emotions, right? Like if we ran that call together, I guarantee you probably have some of the same emotions that I'm feeling and to look at you and say, you know, yeah man, I, I, I gotta call my kids like that, that kind of tugs at my heart.

That sucks. And you're like, I, you too. You know? So just, just being there for each other. Um, and actually we just, we just ran, uh, I got called out for a peer support call, uh, a couple weeks ago, you know, two o'clock in the morning. They're running a seven week old pediatric arrest. So I meet the crews at the hospital and, you know, we're doing our peer support stuff, and the, the paramedic that was running the call had just been cleared maybe a month before. So he is a brand new baby paramedic. Uh, and this is his first pediatric rest that he's run. And as I'm talking to the group in, in the room. Like, I could just see him welling up with tears. You know, one runs down his cheek, so I just walk over and like, bro hug him. And I'm like, Hey man. And you know, he broke down on my shoulder and then I shared some tears with him and it's like, you know, just, just the hug that he gave was like, thank you.

Like, just, just validating his emotion rather than tucking it down, down below and letting it fester for years. So that's where peer support really needs to come in. Like it, you don't have to be on the team. You don't have to be properly trained. You know, we, we tell each other the, the worst jokes in the firehouse.

We pick on each other relentlessly. You know, we meet for a baseball game, we do all these things, so just, just be there for your brothers and your sisters. Like that's, that's what peer support really needs to be. And we're, we're seeing it with our team that we've, we've become so organic that somebody's had a good experience with our peer support team. Now they're out there and they see somebody that's having a bad day and they, they take bits and pieces from our conversation and they use it for somebody else. So now they're just, they're just passing it along and paying it forward, and, and that's where we're seeing a ton of success with our peer support stuff.

TJ: You gave me so many things to just riff off of the, the first one is that the peer support purists are gonna come after us. By you saying that you don't necessarily have to be in the team, because that is my other, so, so two experiences with Cism and peer support. One, all of the times that we had a traumatic call that they would dump us into a room, it would just be like, all right, talk about it.

And we've all had the experiences of, I mean, shit, my buddy Dave from dc he's, he talks about it, he said, I forget which episode he was on, but he's like, the senior guy or somebody who's been around for forever will be like, if no, if anybody has any issues, then you're a pussy and you shouldn't be here.

And that sort of like kills the vibe, if you will. And while I didn't experience that myself, I just know that it was extremely difficult for people to open up in a room full of others. And say, Hey, this hurt me because the same stuff that you talked about, oh, are they gonna think that I'm not fit for the job?

Are they going to pull me off the floor? Are they going to do all of those things? And that cism peer support, when we lost Nate, all the peer support teams descended upon the firehouse. And I've talked about it ad nauseum where, you know, I had to wait in line for a bathroom that I had cleaned the morning of, right?

Because there were so many strangers in my firehouse. And then there were strangers following us and they're like, oh, we just gotta make sure you guys don't kill yourselves. And we're like, what the fuck? Now granted, I'll give it to the department first line of duty, death that we had had in 60 years. Um, kind of rough to navigate.

But even then, what I noticed is that it was a lot of loyalty to. The peer support team and not the people. And that is my, one of my gripes is that we, we find these little pockets, you know, you know Chad Rogers, right?

Brad: Oh yeah.

TJ: We, I was talking to him years ago about his dad, about, you know, what he did in a different department.

He's like, he found a niche, he got good at it. And that is what took his career to the next level. And I see that something similar happens in, in that peer support world, and that people will look at it and say, I can do amazing things in peer support for my career and it is going to elevate me. And it is noticeable how selfish that can be.

And again, I'm probably gonna draw fire from a lot of people and catch a lot of flack. But if I'm wrong, I hope I'm wrong. And.

Brad: same. The same could be said like, my experience with the training academy, right? Like, I'm not going there to get to the next promotion. I'm not going there to build my resume. I'm going there 'cause I want to, like, I, I see equity in it, like I see. I see what I can do for the next generation of recruits.

Like mine's gonna be a two year assignment. I'm gonna be there for four classes. You know, we're looking at, you know, 250 recruits coming through where I'm gonna be the one managing all the people, training them. So like, it's, it's not about my career, it's about their career. And the one thing we say in the fire department is, leave it better than you found it.

And you know, I got 20 years, so, you know, who knows if my wife finds a job and she's gonna be the sugar mama and I drop retirement papers and go then, you know, like that's, that's what it is. But I want to get, I wanna get all my knowledge into these recruits and give them the best experience so that they can enjoy their 20 or 30 year career.

And the same with peer support. Like my, I remember when, when I was going through all my stuff, I came back to the chief of health and safety. So to go through workers' comp, I had to do an injury packet. And I'm like. How the fuck do I fill this out? Like it happened years ago. So he sat down with me, he's like, dude, you're not the first person.

You're not gonna be the last. Filled out all the paperwork with me, made sure it was taken care of, got me what I needed. So I come back, you know, months later, and I'm like, chief, uh, chief Paul Dougherty is one of the coolest guys you'll ever meet. Uh, he just recently retired. Uh, hate to see him go, but you know, I came back and I said, I said, dude, I wanna help the next person that goes through this.

The next person that has to fill this packet out, or the next person that needs help. Like, I don't want them to feel like I did. I don't want them to feel left out. I don't want 'em to feel scared. I don't want them to think that we're out here trying to take their job or get 'em off the floor. Like, I want them to know that like, jump in the water's fine.

You're, you're gonna be okay. Like, this is, this is the right move. And so, like, me being on peer support is not about, you know, padding my resume. It's not about doing that. It's like I. I just wanna make sure my brothers and sisters don't have to go through what I did. It was, it was terrible. But as I came through, it's like, all right, this is, this is actually where we need to be.

We should be doing this for recruits as they come in, like teaching 'em all this stuff. Not like, ah, we'll we'll teach you how to dodge a punch after you get hit in the face once. Like, like, no, that's not what we want. We want them to have that resiliency now. We want them to know what these options are before they get to these points.

You know, like if it's predictable, it's preventable. So why are we waiting for people to have 20 years or 10 years with traumatic calls and now they're, you know, trying to scratch the roof of their mouth with a, a gun barrel. Like, that's not where we want 'em.

TJ: Well, not to mention that, you know, if I'm that recruit and I'm going, you know, I spend a few years and I go through shit and you come to me and you're like, we could have taught you this before, but we just wanted you to get, you know, get a couple licks in and kind of kind of feel what it feels like.

Then I'm gonna lose all hope and all trust in you. Be like, cool. You could have kept me away from bad shit, but you didn't. Thanks a lot. Thanks a lot. Now we talk about what the shoulds, what we should do, what departments should do, what the world should be. I feel that we're lucky we're in the area that we are because there's a lot of structure programs, be they cism, peer support.

We have the Center for Excellence at our backyard. What about those other places? The smaller departments who may not have that psychologist available, may not have, you know, the mental health professional on speed dial. We talked about the people you know, the guys in the back with you that can look at you and be like, eh, you're going through it.

Let's chat. Let's chat about it. What else can those departments do who may not have the resources available?

Brad: I'm, I'm actually working with, uh, or helping, uh, one of our colleagues who volunteers on the eastern shore, um, with their county peer support stuff, and they're in that boat. They don't have a ton of funds. They, they're trying to figure it out. They just started cold calling clinicians and they're like, Hey, uh, do you wanna work with the, with, you know, such and such county?

Um, and, and where they're really finding the struggle is all the county employees, they're covered, they've got everything ready for 'em, but the volunteers don't fall under that umbrella. So they've had, uh, one stretch of highway, they had six or eight fatalities in a month, and a bunch of young kids are seeing this and they're struggling, but the county didn't have resources for 'em.

So I applaud 'em that they're saying, Nope, that's unacceptable. We're not, we're not standing for it. We're not taking no for an answer. What do we do? So they just, they, they went into Google and therapist near me, they found a list and they just started calling, Hey, you wanna work with us? You wanna work with us?

And they actually have one organization that's like, absolutely, we actually have a ton of resources available. We just didn't know who to get in touch with. So, uh, it's, it's just like anything else. If you're, if you're passionate about it and you really want it, just make the phone calls, you'll, you'll be surprised.

And, um, I guess from a business perspective, if these clinicians, their businesses are looking for that, that avenue of tax write off, like, yeah, it benefits them, but they truly, they truly care about the first responders. Uh, I, I mean, my, my very first clinician that I ever met with, she told me straight up, she's like, I don't want you to stop doing what you're doing.

She's like, you wanna be a firefighter? You guys are crazy. You go into burning buildings, you see all this stuff. She's like, I don't, I don't have any passion for that at all. So I need you on the street. Like you keep us safe. Um, their, their goal is not to, you know, get our, end our careers or push us out. you'd be surprised if you just reach out to these just clinicians. And we, we really push for culturally competent clinicians. And what that means is somebody that can understand the fire department, police department's, military, stuff like that. Um, my, my very first clinician had no clue about our culture.

And, um, like when I was telling her the story of the call, that really brought me in. Like, she's crying so I gotta give her tissues. And I'm like, you're supposed to be helping me. Um, and then. She just didn't understand anything about the firehouse, none of the nuance. And so like the first session was explaining all of that to her. She's like, so find somebody that's culturally competent and we're starting to see more and more people because this is like uncharted waters, you know, from a business perspective. They're like, oh, cool, I got this. And they also see from a government standpoint, like if the, the county government or the local government is gonna pay for these resources I'm in, like that's, that's low hanging fruit. Um, so yeah, for any of the smaller departments, whether it's volunteer career, anything like that, just start reaching out to clinicians and, and they network just like we do. So, you know, we know people in fire departments all across the country. They know clinicians all over the place. So they may know somebody that, oh yeah, this guy, that, that's what he studies.

That's what he does is, is, you know, public safety, uh. You know, they're, they're out there and Google is a magical thing.

TJ: Yeah, you've talked about it's okay to not be okay, but it's not okay to stay, not okay. Number one, what a tongue twister. I had to like rehash it in my head a bunch of times to make sure I said it correctly, but it's such a powerful statement. It acknowledges that the stuff that we see and what we go through and the hits that we take, that they're fine.

That you're not weak and that you are not irreparably broken. But it also puts the onus on us to say, okay, I acknowledge it, but I can't stay here. I can't stay in that boiling pot. I can't stay in that corner. I can't be on that cliff side. Tell me more about that statement.

Brad: So I, I use this all the time with peer support. We are no more skin, bone and emotion than the people we go out to help because we have fancy uniforms and million dollar apparatus and that, that pains me to say million dollar apparatus because that's what they're costing now. But just because we have all this stuff and we get to do the cool stuff.

Doesn't mean like we had to turn over our emotions. Uh, uh. I mean, you've, you've got time in the service. So I, I remember as a volunteer, they would always say like, yep, leave your feelings at the door. But we never picked them back up. We never dealt with them. We never came back to it. So yeah, you run a call and, you know, pediatric arrest, like, it's sad.

Like anybody that doesn't cry over or feel any emotion over a dead baby, if you've never done CPR on a dead baby, I don't wish it on you. But when you're doing that and you don't feel any emotion, like that's there, there's something deep there, right? So if it makes you sad, be sad. Um, I, I, I had my share of anger management that I had to deal with, but what I realized is anger was coming out as this dominant trait, this masculine trait, because I was denying myself to be sad.

To be, you know, whatever that was. And so, yeah, if it, if it takes, you know, five minutes after that call to go find a corner and, you know, let out some tears because it was sad. There's nothing wrong with that. Like, you, you would cry if one of your parents passed away or you know, your blood brother or anything like that.

It, it, it's sad. So it's okay to feel those emotions. Like they're, they're there for a reason now, when those emotions control everything, when it's now three weeks later and you know, you're taking six showers a day at work, so you can cry and nobody can see your tears. You know that now that's, that's something else.

Or your, your emotions are now pushing you into substance abuse or whatever that maladaptive coping mechanism is. That's where. That's where we start to really push people to more professional help. Um, but we're, we're finding just that cathartic release after a call. Like I said, we're doing our peer support rounds and you know, one of my buddies is tearing up about this call and I'm like, Hey man, it's okay.

It let it out. And the next morning on his way home, he text me. He is like, man, that was, that was awesome. Like, it sucks that we ran that call, but the way you handled that was just awesome. And we can't deny those emotions. So it, it's okay to feel these emotions. It's, it's not, it's not there to hurt you.