093. More Than The Patch On Your Sleeve [Part 1]

Who are you when the job no longer defines you? Josh McGill gets honest about growing up in the volunteer fire service, chasing the dream of the career job, and then making the hard call to walk away from it. This episode is about brotherhood, loss, identity, and the kind of growth that only comes when life forces you to face who you really are. 

What You’ll Learn:

•  Why the volunteer firehouse can still shape a young firefighter for life 
•  What it really feels like to leave the career fire service after building your identity around it 
•  How loss changes the way you see fear, time, and purpose 
•  Why your worth has to be bigger than the patch on your sleeve 
•  How hard seasons can push you toward a better life if you let them 

If you’re a firefighter who’s wrestling with identity, loss, or what comes after the job, this one’s for you.

Transcript

TJ: Today's guest is one of my oldest friends in the fire service, Josh McGill. Josh and I came up together in the volunteer firehouse world in Maryland, where we spent our younger years chasing calls, getting into trouble, and learning a lot of lessons the hard way. He's a 17-year fire service veteran who started as a volunteer in high school, studied fire protection engineering at the University of Maryland, and eventually got hired in Montgomery County.

But this conversation goes way beyond a career timeline. We talk about the firehouse culture that shaped us, the identity that comes with being a firefighter, and what it's like to walk away from something you once thought would define your whole life. We also get into the loss of Josh and Ashley's first daughter, Leni, and how that kind of grief changed the way that he sees fear, time, family, and purpose.

Out of that pain came a promise to make Leni proud, and in many ways that promise helped shape the business he's building now through Vulca and the Vulca Training System.

This episode is funny in some moments, heavy in others, and honest all the way through. I think you're really gonna connect with Josh, so let's get started.

Speaker: Welcome to the Keep The Promise Podcast, where we help build resilient and well-rounded firefighters.

TJ: You wanna know when I learned how to, and this is so embarrassing to say, I learned how to tie it by myself before my interview with Montgomery County because,

Josh: to tie, you had to tie in high school.

TJ: but here's the thing,

Josh: Did

TJ: I

Josh: Were you, were

TJ: no, fuck no I wasn't. But my dad can tie phenomenal ties with like the little dimple and everything. Like, they just look awesome.

So what I would do at the beginning of every school year is I would like figure out which ones I wanted and he would tie all of 'em. And after school every day at John Carroll, I would just like slip it off my neck, hang it up like that. And uh,

Josh: You're a cheater.

TJ: he was out of town when the Montgomery County interview was happening, and I'm like, fuck, fuck, fuck, fuck dude.

And I figured it out and I still remember.

Josh: why he didn't get the job.

TJ: What's new? What's good? How's Ashley?

Josh: She's good. She's very, very pregnant. So it's, it's good we're doing this now because if we waited, uh, if we waited a week, probably would not be able to do this.

TJ: How's Edith?

Josh: She's great. She's probably crying. We just put her to bed. She doesn't like that. But uh, she's good man. She's so much fun. She's learning. She's at the point where she's starting to just like pick up all of the words,

TJ: Oh boy.

Josh: can't quite say them all. So truck is frock and we have a lot of trucks that pass by the house.

So she's, and she hears 'em now too, and she knows it's a truck. So she hear a truck go by and she'll say, frock. Frock.

TJ: Good, good, good, good. Can't wait till she starts cursing.

Josh: She's almost there. She's saying, frock.

TJ: Oh man.

Going to my John Carroll reunion this weekend.

Josh: What's that? Your, uh, fifth, 15th. 20th.

TJ: Yeah, dude.

Josh: that's right, that's right. Yeah. 'cause I would've, I, my fifth, my 15th would've been like two years ago. So, yeah. That makes sense.

TJ: Crazy. Crazy. Crazy, crazy.

Josh: And you're, you're actually going

TJ: Yeah, dude. Curious to see who I'm gonna see. And I think, so the event is scheduled for like four hours and I'm trying to figure out what is going to happen for four fucking hours on a Saturday afternoon. But um,

Josh: about what you guys were doing 20 years ago. Obviously

TJ: dude, I don't remember what I was doing yesterday.

I think they're gonna give us like a tour of the school, which, you know, they took all that money and I drove past a while back and they do, they redid fields and shit. Everything's like AstroTurf. There's

Josh: I, I haven't driven by in a

TJ: security guards and cameras and it's kind of wild. So maybe they're gonna be like, oh, here, you should contribute with the alumni contribution.

Josh: Well, you know, they're gonna do that.

TJ: Oh, 100%. Oh, I should bring,

Josh: that's the whole point.

TJ: I should bring Monopoly money and just give them that.

Uh, did you ever have a Miss Gatesy?

Josh: Yeah. Yeah.

TJ: Yeah, so she passed away. I wanna say it was like last year or something.

Josh: yeah,

TJ: She was good people.

Josh: yeah. Yeah. It's weird. Um, I don't even know what teachers are still there. I mean, that's, you know, 20 years ago, 15, 20 years ago,

TJ: Mm-hmm.

Josh: that's like an entire career.

TJ: Oh, dude. I went down a deep dive into their Facebook page and I found my sophomore year chemistry teacher. And I remember that because we all, like all my friends and I just fell in love with chemistry. 'cause she was awesome. She got pregnant, went off for maternity leave, junior year rolls around and everybody's in the next chemistry class might have been like AP or some shit.

And we had a teacher who had no idea and that's when we all started hating chemistry.

Josh: Oh, no,

TJ: Like she doesn't know how to explain shit. This is awful. But apparently she's back from maternity leave after, you know, all those years and still teaching.

Josh: I hope she's back from maternity leave by now.

TJ: I don't know, dude. I wouldn't go back to teaching. Fucking, you need patience of a saint to be a school teacher.

Josh: Yeah. I'm out on that. That's, uh, that is a, a whole different calling,

TJ: All right, let's talk about high school. Who were you before you got into the fire service? Who was Josh?

Josh: dude. I don't even remember. Um, that was long ago. Uh. mean, I was, I was just a kid. I mean, I didn't really know what I wanted to do in life. junior year of high school was when I started working. I got a job as a lifeguard and uh,

TJ: At the Arena Club. Right?

Josh: right,

TJ: my God. Everybody had a job at the fucking Arena club as a lifeguard.

Josh: that was the place to work, dude.

And it was, it was fun. That's, uh, that's actually how, uh, my connection to the fire service started was a guy there who, uh, had a brother at our volley house and, uh, told me to come check it out and I did. And that's when we had the ping pong table there and I walked in. All these guys were playing ping pong and it just looked like a good time.

TJ: Wait, who was, who was the brother? Who was the person that was connected to the firehouse?

Josh: uh, it was, uh, Chad and Todd Snaggle.

TJ: Oh my God.

Josh: Yeah.

TJ: I heard a story about, about Baltimore County a couple years ago about like showing up to. Uh, like a little shed fire or something, and the person telling the story goes like, yeah, the firefighter just like came, like running around the corner screaming to fill the box. I'm like, sounds like a slosh move.

And they looked at me like, how did you know? Like, yes, nothing's changed. Slosh. Keep it up buddy.

Josh: Do you think you listens to your podcast

TJ: I hope so. So he hears a shout out and he's gonna send me some, like half english, half Spanish text message telling me to go fuck myself. Like he normally does,

Josh: l fucko yourself?

TJ: uh, the ping pong table too, dude. I Did you ever get thrown on it or over it or under it while running for a call?

Because

Josh: absolutely. Yeah.

TJ: I, those are some of my memories too. Like, you come blasting out of the, those double doors for a call and somebody just body checks you into the ping pong table.

Josh: Or, or coming out of the gym, going down that little incline there. Somebody always ate shit.

TJ: The one time that I pushed on the panic bar and the door didn't open, and I think it was meeting night, so there were like 20 motherfuckers behind me and it, I just got crushed.

Josh: fast for the sensor, for the sensor

TJ: No, 'cause remember it was like, it was mechanical. So I pushed on the bar. On the,

Josh: oh, oh,

TJ: like going from

Josh: to the engine

TJ: Yeah. Out into the end of a, yeah.

And I pushed on this bar, dude, and I'll just, I'll never forget that I looked down in my hands and as people are crushing into me, like my wrists were getting bent back. We did some dumb shit. Anyway, we have digressed already,

Josh: Yeah.

TJ: we joined the local valley house and the ping pong table is what drew you into the flyer service.

Josh: Among other things. Among other things. Um, yeah, I think your original question was about high school. I, um, yeah, I mean, I didn't really know what I wanted to do. I thought about, um. Thought about law enforcement actually. Um, and I'm glad I did not go down that path. But, uh, but no, it was actually, uh, I mean, I was always in, you know, the, the science, I was always into the science classes and, and, uh, not so much the math, but more the science stuff.

And, um, parents had always very much pushed, uh, getting a usable education in college. So I, I looked at engineering schools, um, and that was kind of where, where my path, what ended up taking me. But, um, one of the, uh, one of the chiefs at the Valley house, and I, I had no idea this existed at the time, told me about the Fire protection engineering program at Maryland. And, um, you know, I joined about halfway through high school, so I was applying to colleges and all that. So I, I had. I had looked into it, applied to, it, ended up not actually getting into the engineering school at Maryland, but I, I got it. So I don't know if, if Maryland still does it this way or not, but at the time you had to apply to the school itself, like to University of Maryland itself.

And then you would also have to apply to, if it was like a, a special school within the university, like the business school, the engineering school, or the journalism school or whatever, that was like a, a separate step that you had to get accepted to, to that school. made it into the, the school itself, but not into the engineering school. and I made it into the engineering school at Delaware, university of Delaware for mechanical engineering. Um, and it was literally like the day before I had to put my deposit down for the University of Delaware. And, um, we got a letter in the mail that was like, Hey, we've from the University of Maryland, that was like, Hey, we've re reconsidered your evaluation and decided to accept you into the, uh, engineering school in the fire protection engineering program. I don't know if it had anything to do with this, but. A couple months prior to that, I had gone to the University of Maryland for, it was like a, an open house or, I don't remember what the event was, but I ended up meeting the head of the fire protection engineering department, who was also a volunteer in PG County at the time, or not at the time.

He was a life member in PG County. So he was connected to the fire service and I got talking to him and I don't know if this had anything to do with the reconsideration of my application or not, but, um, I, I ended up getting in and that's, that's where I ended up going. Um, still wasn't sure if that's what I had wanted to do long term or not, because at the time the, the fire bug was getting me and I wanted, you know, I was drawn towards maybe being a career fireman at that point, but I knew, um, I at least wanted to, to get a degree.

And at the time, uh, I'm sure you remember this was after the recession, or actually kind of during the recession and there was absolutely no fire department's hiring. and if they had been, I, I may not have finished my, college education, but, but yeah, I mean, that was, that was the time when, you know, people were sitting on hiring lists for forever and they just weren't, nobody was testing, nobody was doing anything.

So, uh, I ended up finishing my degree and towards the end of my degree I was applying, you know, I, I, I applied to, to career fire departments at that, at that point, I knew I at least wanted, I wanted to do it. Um, whether that was forever or not, I didn't know, but it was something that I knew I had to do because if I didn't do it, I would look back my entire life and be, and just wonder, you know? So that was, uh, that was kind of what led me to the career fire service ultimately. And, uh, what was your original question about high school? Right?

TJ: You can go and get back to high school, but you gave me a lot of stuff that we can look back on. This is gonna send you on a tangent. What exactly goes into fire Protection Engineering.

Josh: You mean?

TJ: What?

Josh: do?

TJ: Yeah, because I too went to an engineering school that had nothing to do with fire protection engineering and I thought I knew what I was getting into and I realized, oh, this is a lot more, a lot more variety than I expected.

So coming in as somebody who pretends to know what the fuck goes into fire protection engineering, can you explain to me what, what it is? Because I look at it, I was like, you these guys sit behind the computer screen and make CAD drawings of sprinkler systems and then they send BFP to go do work.

Josh: that's right. Um, I mean, that is, that is one that is one avenue, uh, that a fire protection engineer could take. But, um, I mean there's, there's a ton of different, different, uh, paths that it could take you down. Um. That's, that's one of 'em, like a, a designing systems and very much in a, a classical engineering sense. Um, you know, there's, uh, code enforcement type stuff. There's, um, I mean, there's all kinds of stuff. And now I'm, I'm blanking on all the other things that, that you can do with it. Um, like Right, I mean, obviously right now, uh, I work as a code consultant. Um, so I do, uh, you know, a, a, a big architecture firm will come hire us to, to look at their life safety plans, um, to get it, you know, get it through, you know, county inspection or city inspection or, or whatever, um, so they can get their permit.

So that's, you know, that's, that's another aspect of it. a lot of consulting jobs out there in the, in the fire protection arena. yeah, I mean, it's, there's, there's a ton. I mean, so ba basically like 70%. 60 or 70% of like a mechanical engineering degree. And then there's some specialized classes on top of that. Um, and mechanical engineers, same thing. And there's so many different paths you can go down with, with any engineering degree. Um, but yeah, I mean, there's, there's all kinds of stuff. I

TJ: gonna say out loud what I've been thinking since I got in the fire service and I started interacting with you folks that went to Maryland. It always seemed like the fire science programs and the fire protection engineering programs were just like a holding tank for guys to have an excuse to go to Maryland,

Josh: That's right.

TJ: but be livings in pg.

How true? How true is that?

Josh: at, yeah, I mean, that is fairly true. Uh, I did not live at a firehouse while I was there. If I did, I don't think I would've finished my degree to be a hundred percent honest with you. Um, but, but yeah, I mean, that's, that's true. I mean, my, my fire protection engineering class was about 50% guys from the fire service and then 50%, uh, people who, um, usually knew somebody in, in the fire protection world and found out about the program and then, you know, a smaller portion of people who, you know, maybe were undecided engineering and was like, wow, this seems pretty cool.

And it decided that's, you know, that that was, that was what they wanted to do,

TJ: It was always fascinating hearing you guys come back home from, from college and you know, getting together around Thanksgiving or Christmas time or the summer and listening to the fucking PG guys tell these insane stories. And I just remember being like, I'm, I get to go to school at the beach, which is pretty awesome, but these guys were doing some wild shit and I look back fondly on those memories because we didn't know what we didn't know, right?

Like we were just young and dumb. And every day in the fire service was a, another crazy story, another fun thing to do. And these stories that I don't, I hope they still get told, just kind of like formed that identity for the fire service and what, what you want it to be, what you didn't want to be, how to act, how not to act.

There were, there were so many stories that I still remember that we had on those fucking shitty chairs out in that engine bay around the ping pong table.

Josh: There's chairs are probably still there.

TJ: Yeah, the, the office chairs that we used to take out front into the front ramp and just sit there and shoot the shit before phones, right? This is before smartphones.

The iPhone was just coming out around that time, so nobody had a smartphone. People had fucking nextels with a beep beep that we would get the pre-alert from dispatch if we knew somebody who was working at dispatch. And um, and it was just phenomenal because we were all so present and we were presently paying attention to everything that was going on at the firehouse with our people.

What do you remember the most about those early years at the firehouse, both in PG and, and back home, and kind of like those stories that we just talked about? What are some of those things that people may not understand unless they have lived them?

Josh: Oh man. Um, I mean, it was really the guys and, and the calls that you were going on. I mean, it was, I mean, I was never at a, at a slow firehouse, you know, it was always, we were always going on calls and always getting into stuff, but I mean. It was, it was the guys and the calls and the shenanigans I think was probably the, the three biggest things.

It's, it's hard to explain to people who aren't in the fire service, but yeah. The, the guys, the calls and the shenanigans for sure.

TJ: And sometimes we probably shouldn't explain it to them because it's, there's no way that you can do it. Without horrifying them when you're like, yeah, it's like four or five 18 year olds in the back of a million dollar fire truck and they're about to go to a house fire or to cut somebody out of a mangled car or something.

Because they would just be like, what? And like now looking back on it, 20 years passed, you're like, we were doing what at what age and getting away with it.

Josh: Yeah. It, it was, it was a frat house with $15 million of fire equipment that, that we were in charge of.

TJ: There are some things that I, we probably can't even talk because like looking back on it, we're might be illegal and they're probably like, get us canceled.

Josh: Statute of limitations has probably expired.

TJ: I'm not gonna try. There's like, I mean, dear God, so much fun. I used to live at that firehouse during the summer in between like when I was in college. Um, and you're right, shenanigans that took, that was. A big part of our upbringing, and you and I got caught in a couple of 'em that, um, that landed us in in hot water.

From your end getting in trouble must have taught you a couple things. What did it teach you about the culture of the fire service, loyalty to each other, and just growing up as a man and as a firefighter?

Josh: Yeah, I mean the, the fire service shaped I was. I mean, it still does, but I mean it. I mean, you mentioned loyalty. Loyalty is kind of a funny word in the fire service because you can be loyal to a lot of different things. Um, you can be loyal to the department. I mean, you can be loyal to clique of people. Um, there's a lot of different loyalties that, that lie in the fire service. And, uh, not all of 'em align all the time. And na navigating that is, is definitely something that, uh, that the fire service taught me how to do. Um, and I mean, what was the, what was some of the other parts of your question that you had?

It was like a

TJ: Dude, that, that was a phenomenal answer about, about the alignment of those loyalties, um, culture, loyalty and growing up. I.

Josh: Yeah. Uh, I mean, growing up that was. I mean, I was a 17-year-old kid, an 18-year-old kid. Uh, you know, I was, I had any, any minute of free time, uh, whenever I could, I was, I was at the firehouse, uh, I mean, probably until I got hired. And then I was at a firehouse every third day on my days off, uh, um, but yeah, I mean, that's it, it formed who I am as a person.

Hands down.

TJ: Do you think those volunteer firehouses still have that, that that ability to mold young men and women into something worthwhile? Have we lost it with technology, with the changes in the fire service, or do you think that's a timeless thing that can transcend all of us?

Josh: I do, I mean, I, I do think that the fire service can still. Mold young people, uh, you know, the way it molded us and, you know, if you had gone back to the seventies, I mean, it was different technology, but there was still young kids in the seventies in the firehouses getting molded and, know, up eighties, nineties, you know, we were the early two thousands. I mean, technology's different and, and kids are different, generations are different. But, I mean, what, what the fire service is at its core hasn't really changed. And I think, you know, that aspect of it, you know, there, there, there are gonna be young people who latch onto that and get molded by it just like we did.

TJ: I think by technology I, I don't mean so much the equipment or the dispatch calls or you know, electric fire engines, like whoever the fuck might have them. I mean, the shit in our pockets. And I say that because one of the most heartbreaking moments that I had all to myself was sitting at our big, big firehouse kitchen table and this station was built to house like 12 plus people.

So it's a big table, right? Like lots of company pride and whatnot. And I looked around and you know, the senior captain with 26 plus years on his phone, the rookie next to him on his phone, the guy's on the ambo on their phones, the rest of the engine crew on their phones. I'm looking around, I was like, I'm surrounded by these guys.

And I actually feel kind of alone. Because there's no presence.

Josh: yeah, I mean, I think that's, I think that's a problem beyond just the fire service though. I mean, like, I, I still catch myself, you know, we're having, we're having dinner as a family with my daughter in her high chair, and I still catch myself reaching for my phone sometimes. And I have to consciously make the decision to, to really try to be present, you know, especially when it, when it involves, you know, our daughter, um. And I think that's greater than the fire. I mean, that's everywhere. Uh, and it, it is a shame because the kitchen, the firehouse, kitchen table was, you know, it's the place, right? I mean, and it still is. I, I don't think, I don't think that's fully gone away at all. I mean, the firehouse kitchen table is still the firehouse kitchen table. Um, but I think culturally everywhere everybody is, is distracted on their phone. And I think that's, that's a problem beyond the fire service.

TJ: I had a senior guy that was. How do I put this? A little bit rough around the edges and a little hard to get along with. But in retrospect, one thing I really appreciate is that he was a fucking asshole when it came to having your phone out at the, at the kitchen table, he would call out the young guy, the old, like the more senior firefighter, the lieutenants.

It didn't matter. Like he hated it and he made it known. And looking back on it, it was so worth it being president, you know, just watching the conversation ebb and flow and trying to figure out if you were gonna be the butt of the next joke or if you're gonna get piled on, or if we're gonna have a deep conversation or just fuck around.

Let's go back to when you got hired at Montgomery County. It was pretty quickly after college, right?

Josh: Yeah, it was, um, so I, I applied while I was still in college, probably maybe a year before graduation. Uh, I didn't get hired for the first recruit class. I got hired for the second one after that. So that ended up putting me maybe six months, eight months after graduation I got hired.

TJ: So that's like two big wins, one after the other, right? You must have been high on life, you know, finishing that four year degree and then boom, career of a lifetime. What did that mean to you on both accounts

Josh: I mean, it, it meant everything. It was, I mean, like you said, it was two big milestones. Graduating with my degree and, making it to the career fire services where, where I wanted to be. Um, yeah, I mean, it, it meant everything to me.

TJ: and in terms in terms of lessons learned from, from your time in Montgomery? What are a couple things that being a career firefighter gave you that you're actually gonna carry forever in life?

Josh: I mean, I, I, I still end up waking up at like four 30 in the morning.

TJ: Against your better judgment,

Josh: it gave me that. but I mean, it gave me all the things you think it would, I mean, discipline, I, it gave me, I mean, it showed me what the career side of the fire service was like. you know, good and bad, but. I mean, it was what I wanted to do, and it gave me that sense of accomplishment that, you know, I got hired, I made it through an academy. I'm off probation, you know, I'm a career fireman doing career fireman things, and I, I can do this and I did it, and that I still have a sense of pride when I look back and say, you know, I, I did that.

TJ: dude, maybe you went through the same thing that I did. ' cause I caught myself a few times, even as the years went on. But we be going to a call or something like I'm in the back of the engine. And at the time we had three at that particular company. Three. Three on the engine. So I was by myself, whatever with my thoughts.

And there were a few times I would be going somewhere and I would just be smiling ear to ear like, oh my God,

Josh: I am getting paid for

TJ: I am exactly, exactly what I was feeling like it. It was just so weird feeling now on the other side that we had looked at for so long as this like crazy profession on a pedestal and you're like, I am here.

This is fucking awesome. Like I have nothing else to worry about in life, but figure out what we're gonna do on this call and then figure out what we're gonna do on the next one and the next one until I get to go home. And then that means just get ready for coming back here on shift.

Josh: That's right.

TJ: That was such a fun time.

Josh: still remember the first fire I went to and I was like, wow, I just got paid to go to that fire.

TJ: Right. Yeah man. Good times. Was there anything about the job that just felt natural to you? And I think that's a biased question because a lot of us that came with quote unquote experience, like we just said, it was getting paid to do something that we already, that we had already done. But was there any point that you just looked at yourself and you said, yeah, this just clicks pretty easily?

This is, this isn't bad. I know it wasn't hazmat 'cause you hated your time at that fucking company.

Josh: Y yeah. Well, yeah. I mean, I was, yeah. Well, yeah. Um, but the days not on an ambulance felt natural to me because that was the first time that I had been forced to, to ride an ambulance that much for that long. Um, yeah, I mean, fi fires still felt like gonna fires. Um, and it was, you know, it clicked that it was good.

It was great.

TJ: Was there anything about the fire service in the career side that just felt like it got harder as the time went on?

Josh: Well, yeah, I mean, so I, I kind of had a little bit of bad luck, uh. With, uh, with my early assignments there I was, I was assigned to companies that were very difficult for me to actually work at, um, without having, uh, a hazmat, uh, I got put at, out, out of rookie school, I got put at a, a hazmat support station and then moved over to a hazmat station that I, I literally could not step foot in without uh, a hazmat tech certification. So that was difficult because you don't have a home base. You don't, you know, you're, you're getting put all over the county to ride everybody else's EMS unit all the time, which, I mean, I knew going in EMS was gonna be part of it. Uh, but the fact that, you know, I, I didn't even have a station that I could work at.

Like, I had, I don't even think I had met my captain for months after I got assigned to that station. So that was, that was difficult. Um. You know, e eventually I did get that certification and then I ended up leaving that firehouse anyway. Uh, going to a, a great firehouse with awesome dudes, um, that felt like the fire service that I wanted to be in.

TJ: Weren't you also doing some of your engineering work on the side, on your days off?

Josh: I was, um, so through the, the volunteer firehouse or one of them, um, I got hooked up with a part-time job fire protection engineering stuff, you know, at, on an hourly basis on my days off. And, uh, I was probably three years, three years into the fire service. I got that. Um, which meant it was great 'cause I, I didn't really have to, to work any overtime. Uh, it was, was a really good gig. and I, I, I actually really enjoyed what I was doing engineering wise too. Um, and it was, it fit perfectly because it was, when I had time, I would do it, and then I would go to work, be a fireman, you know, that was, that was my life for a while. I mean, my, my wife was, uh, up in Boston getting her, her PA degree, so I had nothing else to do, literally except ride firetruck and, and work this part-time job, which is, which is how, how we became so tight because we were on the same shift on different departments and, uh, our days off were the same. So we, uh, we hung out quite a bit during that time.

TJ: People still look at me weird when I explain that I would leave my career job and then go to a place where I got to do the same thing, but for free immediately after. And they're like, so you spend how many hours at a firehouse consecutively? I'm like, I don't know, maybe 48.

Josh: counting, who's counting.

TJ: But at the time, we were so young and dumb and had nothing but energy and just wanting to go to calls and go to fires and, and start shit.

Start shena, start shenanigans.

Josh: That was, that was

TJ: I.

Josh: for like, I don't know, what, four or five years or did that for a while.

TJ: Remember, dude, I'd be finished with like whatever CrossFit class I had, and then we'd just go do meathead workouts at the firehouse gym, ride all the workouts in fucking uh, dry erase marker on the mirror and piss off everybody else.

Josh: right. It's not on the mirror. It doesn't count.

TJ: Oh, man. I'm surprised we didn't get kicked out sooner, bro.

And then what happened in 2019?

Josh: So 2019. Um, so I was, I was working my part-time job. And eventually that led to a full-time job offer for a position that was, was getting created at my, at that job. Um, and I, I had a super tough decision to make. And, uh, it wasn't a decision that was, that was made lightly. It was probably weeks, month plus of, of agonizing about it. Uh, I mean, because this new job came with obviously more money, more pay, better hours. at that time, I mean, we, we, we, we talked about how much we were at the firehouse. I think there was probably an element of burnout there as well. Um, and, and I, I have this, this quirky personality trait where I'm never satisfied with where I'm at, ever, uh, you know, professionally. You know, I couldn't, couldn't go from fire two to fire three fast enough. You know, I couldn't, couldn't get my engine driver done fast enough. Uh, you know, and in this case it was, you know, well, this job's more money. It's, you know, better, better hours. It could lead to, you know, a career where, you know, it, it, you know, 10, 15 years down the road looks a lot different between these two jobs. And, uh, it was, you know, after a lot of, a lot of soul searching, I, I decided to, to take the full-time job doing engineering stuff. And, you know, I, I, I know it's, it's, it's hard to, uh, admit this, but, uh, you know, I, I, I, I cried. I teared up writing my resignation letter, but it was, it was, it was a weird point in my life and it was, a decision that. You know, at, at the time it was the best decision that I could make. Um, you know, with a lot of, uh, con, I mean my, my, my wife Ashley was, was supportive either way. She, she just wanted me to make the decision that I wanted to make. And, um, you know, she, she was, she, she was gonna support me either way, and that was the decision that I made and I lived with it.

I, I told myself, you know, at the time there was a policy that was basically like, you know, if you resign in good standing, you know, you have 18 or 24 months or whatever, and you can basically turn around and walk back in and get your job back. And I kind of used that as a crutch for my decision. But the other, the other crutch that I used was, you know, I, I could always still volunteer, which is true because I, I, I do, uh, and I still enjoy it. But, you know, I, I got into the fire service 'cause I liked riding fire trucks and, you know, if I could make a lot more money and still ride fire trucks, uh, you know, why wouldn't I do that? So, yeah, that was, that was when I left, right before COVID.

TJ: Perfect timing, bro.

Josh: Was it? I don't know, man. I, I, I heard, uh, you know, they were raking in some cash during COVID with, with emergency pay and, and all that.

TJ: I mean, 2020, the overtime was ridiculous. Like it just, it felt illegal the amount of overtime we were making. But when things just kind of went back to the quote unquote new normal, and then all the systems were overwhelmed, EMS was overwhelmed. The hospitals were overwhelmed. We haven't recovered. I mean the, the hospital's wait times are still through the roof for our units.

Like I can still say that I remember the days of showing up with a patient and bitching when I had to wait for 10 plus minutes for a bed, and now it's in the matter of hours. Like I just remember the ambos being gone from the firehouse. You're like, oh, well they just took a bullshit BLS patient, so we'll see them hopefully by dinner time.

When you made that decision to leave the career fire service, did you feel that you were walking away from. A sort of identity that you had built.

Josh: Yeah, I mean, 100% it was, you know, like I said before, I mean, that's what I wanted to do was be a career fireman. Um, and it, I mean, it was who I was, it was what I told everyone when I met 'em, you know, hey, they're like, Hey, what do you, what do you do for a living? And I would proudly say, Hey, I'm a career fireman.

You know, it was, it was, it was who I was. Um, and then for a while it was like, Hey, I'm an engineer, but I used to be a career fireman. You know, it was, it was hard to let go of that, but,

TJ: still bring that up?

Josh: not so much anymore. I mean, people ask because of the mustache. Now they're like, Hey, are you a fireman? Like, no.

But I used to be.

TJ: Funny story.

Yeah, dude, like you gotta, you gotta be careful. 'cause after like I think the statute of limitations might be 10 years and after that you're kind of like that varsity football player from high school that peaked back then.

Josh: Yeah. That's, that's a, that's a good analogy. Yeah.

TJ: I mean, we can get into the whole reinventing ourselves and change of identity and just riff on that. And we'd be here for three hours. When,

Josh: it was tough for sure. Going from, you know, that was, that was who I was to now, you know, I, I think it was still a good decision for, you know, fa family life and, and all that. And, and I'm sure we'll talk about it, but, you know, I couldn't imagine going, what, what we went, going through what we went through and, and still being in the career fire service.

Uh, I mean, that would've been absolutely terrible to do.

TJ: what did you grieve when he walked away? What part did you feel? What part of you did you feel was dying?

Josh: I mean, it was, it was like grieving the whole, I mean the whole identity, like, you know, kind of like we talked about. But, you know, for so long that was, what I wanted to do, and it was like, Hey, I'm, I'm gonna get this degree, but then I'm gonna go be a career fireman, you know? And that was, that was my plan. and it was, it was kinda like grieving, grieving that part of my life a little bit. And I mean, not to get too sappy about it, but it was, it, I mean, it was, it was, it was tough to walk away from for sure.

TJ: And you have some time now, you know it's what, seven years almost ish.

Josh: Yeah.

TJ: I. What's something that you wish you had known better about making that change in life? If you could go back and talk to Josh seven years ago, eight years ago, when you were making that decision, knowing what you know now, what would you tell him?

Like, Hey, bro, you are either blowing this out of proportion or you are not paying attention as you showed to this other thing.

Josh: I mean, I think if I could go back, I mean, looking at, you know, the life that I, that I have now and that, that my wife and I have built together, it's, you know, I wouldn't want any of that to change. And, you know, I, I very much like where we are, um, you know, family wise and, and all that. So I don't think I would, I don't think I would make a different decision knowing what I know now, knowing, you know, how this ends up playing out. Um, I don't know. That's, you know, I don't, I don't know what I would tell myself. I think I would, I mean, what would you tell yourself?

TJ: Just jump, just do it. Because I think I would have to go back to the same decision that led me into the fire service because I had a similar path as yours. I walked outta school with an expensive four plus year piece of paper and I told myself, if I don't do this now, if I don't go into the fire service, into this great adventure, I'm gonna look back in my life when I'm in my seventies and eighties and I'm gonna regret it and I don't want that.

And similarly getting, so that was the end of one chapter, right? That was the end of that sort of like educational building of chapter and getting to the end of the fire service chapter. Same thing. You don't want to get stuck in a place that you look back on and say. I should have taken the other path.

So when, when that moment came, when, and for me it was kind of, I literally just woke up one day and I said, I'm done. Like it's, it's over. Like I just kind of like knew it in my bones and I would've told myself to take that seriously a lot sooner than I did

Josh: Yeah,

TJ: talk about Lenny.

Josh: I got my, my Lenny's dads sweatshirt on.

TJ: You always wear that thing. Does it still have the mustard stain from the white rabbit the other day?

Josh: Uh,

TJ: Oh, that was a T-shirt. That was a white T-shirt. I think.

Josh: that was, yeah, that was, I don't think I wore this. It was, it was hot as shit that day. I

TJ: Bold of you to eat some like was a pizza. Some super saucy pizza. Yeah.

Josh: It was pizza. Yeah.

TJ: Let's talk about Lenny.

Josh: yeah. Lenny, Lenny is, uh, was our, still is, um, our daughter. We, uh, our first daughter that we. Uh, we had, we had trouble getting pregnant with her for, I don't know, better part of two years, maybe a year and a half, two years.

Uh, we, we struggled to get pregnant, um, and we found out we were pregnant with her as we were signing up and going through all the testing and stuff for, for IVF. Um, this was 2022. Um, and you know, we, we had her February of 2023. We had her five weeks early. She was, she was just under 35 weeks when she was born. And then she, uh, she was in the NICU for two weeks, came home right before Valentine's Day, and then, um, Sunday in March, she was perfectly fine. Uh, and then she, she got, she got very sick. then Thursday of that same week we were pulling her off life support and, um. That's mean, that was, uh, a earth shattering, life altering, um, you know, event that, I mean, it still still is. And you were, uh, you're one of the, uh, the people that actually got to meet her in the hospital before, uh, before she passed. So that was, that was very, you know, I'll never forget that all the people who showed up for us, even though we hadn't, we hadn't talked in, in a little while, you know, before that you were, you know, as soon as you were, uh, you were there.

TJ: She held my finger, dude. Like I, I still remember that , I'm grateful that, that we all had the opportunity to, to share that time with her.

And, and I think it's important as life goes on to realize that with, with your true friends, you share the good and the bad. It doesn't matter. You just, you just share everything. And, um, yeah, I'll still, always, always remember her holding my finger and being, being in that room with, with everybody and being like, fucking life, man.

This is, this is crazy. This is insanity. Just trying to wrap my head around it.

Josh: Yeah, we had, we had so many people show up that they, they made people that they, they stopped people signing in. They're like, oh, you're going up to room. You know, whatever. It was just go.

TJ: I should tell you something about the impact that. You and Ashley have made on people's lives that so many people literally came out the woodwork.

Josh: Yeah, it was, uh. Yeah, it was, it was, I mean, that whole time was a blur. I mean, I don't even remember everybody who was there, but, um, I just remember just, there was always people there in, in the room and Lenny. And I mean, it was, it was, it was cool that we got to, uh, to share her with people even though, you know, everything that happened.

But, uh, yeah, it was, and, and even the, you know, at her, her funeral, you know, guys from, from Montgomery County, I hadn't seen in, in years at that point. 'cause this was 2023 I left in 2019. Uh, you know, guys I hadn't seen or talked to in years showed up. And I, I mean, and I, I didn't, I didn't text 'em or anything.

I mean, I don't know even know how they found out, maybe something on Facebook. But, uh, you know, there was guys there and it was, it, it was, it was moving. It really was. you know, the, the brotherhood still runs deep in that way. But, um, but yeah, that was, that was 2023. And, uh. I was, you know, it still is a hard time, but, um, and we've, we've come a long way since then, but it's, I mean, it always is, you know, that, that me missing piece of your soul that's, you know, never gonna be there.

TJ: You said that you and Ashley made a promise to her that you would make her proud.

Josh: Yeah.

TJ: Tell me about that.

Josh: Yeah. We, uh, we, we would talk to her and hold her. It was, it was difficult to hold her, uh, you know, all the stuff she was hooked up to. But we would, would talk to her and, you know, towards the end, we, we told her all the things that we would want her to know, uh, and hear from us. And one of those things was that we wanted to make her proud in, in everything that we do. Um, and that's, that's still something that I live by to, to this day. Um, you know, it's still kind of one of those guiding lights, like, you know, is this, this thing that I'm

TJ: I.

Josh: Is that, is that gonna honor Lenny or is it gonna, you know, tarnish, tarnish your memory? And, uh, you know, that's, that's kind of been the lighthouse that, that I've used for a lot of decisions, you know, since, since her death.

Like, um, uh, I haven't, I haven't drank since, since 2023. That was one of the things that, that I felt that, and Ashley Ashley as well, we, we promised to her that, you know, we'd make her proud. And that was one of the things that, we wanted to do was not, not, uh, not drown ourselves after her death. Um, still haven't, haven't touched alcohol since then.

And that was, know, and it's, it's not even, it's not even hard, you know, it, it's not even hard to, it's turn it down when I know that I'm turning it down because I promised my, my dying daughter that I wasn't gonna drink.

TJ: You also said that, that after going through such a loss, basically the fear of failure and rejection became laughable in comparison.

Josh: Yeah, I mean, the fear of anything, uh, it just goes away. I mean, like when you going through something like that, it, it's, any, your entire world view just goes out the window. Like everything that you thought was important, it just doesn't matter anymore. You know? Um, things that, that you would, you would care about, like, you would care that people thought about you or care about people's opinions of you or what you were doing, like, none of that matters, you know, just shifts your entire worldview into, to something else.

I mean, it's, it's hard to explain unless you've been through something like that, but, um. I mean, the feel, fear of, of failure, of rejection, of, of anything. I mean, that's, that's gone. I mean, a while. It's like the fear of death is gone. You know? It's like, it doesn't, nothing matters anymore. I mean, that's, it changes some, some of that worldview changes, you know, after we had, we had our living daughter, Edith, now there's, you know, some of that changes.

But, um, but yeah, I mean, after worldview shifts like that, it's, it's hard to, for it to go back,

TJ: What. Lessons. What lessons did grief teach you about time? Does it cure? Does it make it worse? I.

Josh: I mean, it, it tells you that. Time is, doesn't matter. Like time isn't guaranteed. Right. Time doesn't matter. Time isn't this thing that you have more of, know, it's uh, it's not this thing you have more of For sure. You know, it's, and it's, you know, it, it's kind of like, I dunno how to, I'm trying to think the best way to describe this with something like this. I mean, time, it doesn't, time doesn't heal something like this, right. But eventually, you know, you learn to live with it. You learn to live with grief and carry it with you. not that it's, not that it's healed or it's gone away, but you just carry it and it, it gets a little bit lighter, you get a little bit stronger