096. Technical Rescue Leaves You Nowhere to Hide [Part 2]

Technical rescue will expose you fast.

In part two with Captain PJ Halloran, we dig into the real work behind Rescue 1: rope rescue, hazmat, swiftwater, decision-making, and building crews that can perform under pressure. PJ also shares how a failed dream turned into the New England Rescue Collaborative, Rescue Lab, and a bigger mission to help firefighters get better training.

What You’ll Learn:

•  Why rope rescue, swiftwater, and hazmat can humble even motivated firefighters. 
•  How to train for high-risk, low-frequency calls before they happen. 
•  Why officers must stop trying to be the hero and start building people. 
•  How regional training can make small departments stronger and more prepared. 
•  Why failure can become the start of something better if you keep moving. 

If you’re a firefighter who wants to get sharper, train harder, and leave the job better than you found it, this one’s for you.

Transcript

pj: I mean, it just the, the physical workout alone is, is incredible. But I think it just gives you... You know, people talk about mental resiliency, and I, I, there's no better way of proving resiliency than, yes, getting a knee to your face and carrying on. That's the

TJ: Dude, it's almost verbatim. All you jujitsu guys and gals say the same thing. I interviewed somebody from my old department, and she basically said the same thing. She's like, really hard to feel down, and it's really hard to not be resilient when you're literally getting choked

pj: Yes. Yeah

TJ: Like, nothing else matters at that point other than surviving that

pj: It's, you're just looking up at the clock hoping it goes, you know, goes to zero. Or you're going to sleep. You know, I've been there too. That's, is what, is what it is.

TJ: it's getting darker. It's getting darker

pj: I always say, you know what's weird? I always have this reoccurring dream if I, you know, if somebody ever puts me to sleep. Brazilian Christmas.

I don't know what it is. It's just maybe Brazilian Santa? Yeah, I don't know. It might just be the, the hypoxia, but

TJ: Yeah, that's probably like your brain getting all completely

pj: Yeah, I ha- I have, uh, what is it? CBE, CBE now or something, or the, uh,

TJ: CTE,

pj: There you go. Yeah, I definitely have that

TJ: CBD, that's the other

pj: No, that's what, that's what I'm using to recover from the CTE.

TJ: And everybody go buy Rescue 1 CBD. Use code KTP for 15% off. You're welcome, John. He better listen to this podcast

pj: way better now

TJ: Okay, I- we're about to dive into the whole Rescue 1 side of things. We've talked about you, we've talked about the culture. We're actually gonna get into the, the real meat and potatoes, and I wanna start with almost the personality cult. Because mentioned before, and I, and I, I try to allude to it as much as I can, anytime that somebody hears Rescue company, and especially Rescue 1, like the name itself has almost like a mystique.

It has a pride behind it. You, you think capability. Like I know my buddies in Rescue 1 in Baltimore City, they are top-notch human beings, top-notch firefighters, like amazing dudes. What does that mean to you personally? Like, you get to wear stuff that says, you know, 1

pj: Yeah. Oh, yeah. It's also tattooed on my lower back.

TJ: you feel?

Of course it is.

pj: No, man, it... I mean,

TJ: Second to none?

pj: Uh, no, I, I mean, honestly, to me it means it's a huge responsibility, but I, I love every minute of it. It's, it really is that, it's sort of the, the pinnacle of what I think, you know, firefighting is.

And if you've ever read The Last Men Out by Tom Downey, uh, you know, it talks about the guys of Rescue 2 back in New York in the early days. And there's a piece in there that really struck me when I read through it, and I, I highlight it and go back to it. And I talked to it at the be- at the beginning of my speech, I go back to it, and it talks about how, you know, he says the men of Rescue 2 were some of the strongest, bravest guys in, in New York, and how if you were a firefighter in trouble in, you know, some smoky hallway somewhere, the men of Rescue 2 were coming to save you.

And on top of that, they were the smartest guys that could rip apart a car, uh, get you out of the East River, and then, you know, deal with a nuclear bomb if they had to. And like, I... That is just the most amazing thing to me, and that, that struck me because I, I truly believe that, and that's, I think that's what it takes

TJ: But to get there, you have to have, like we talked about, a bit of that ego,

pj: Yeah

TJ: but also a bit of humility because some of these tech rescue classes can really humble

you. 

pj: yeah

TJ: Out of all the ones that have-- that you've taken, which one do you think is gonna be the quickest one to humble a prospective member, and why? I will tell you mine later

pj: Oh, come on. We have to wait now? Um, I, I think in tech rescue, at least for me, I, it's... I think the rope stuff can be very daunting, and for me early on it was, and it, it, it's a very perishable skill that if you don't practice it or don't know it to begin with, it, it can be a turnoff. And it is also the basis of many of the other s- uh, tech rescue components, so you, you have to be proficient at it.

So it's, you know, it is a large or it's a steep hill to climb if you're just looking at it for the first time. Like, you know, now guys are building hybrid skate blocks and all sort of... You know, you're seeing all this stuff on TikTok and they're just like, they're like, "Dude, I can't do any of that. What are you talking about?"

Like, if you're just starting out, you're like, "What is, what is that? What are they doing?" But it just, it's one step after another. You just have to continually do it every shift. That, I mean, that's what it takes. Even if, even, even me, I, I still, you know, I take a week off or I, we're doing some other, some other sort of discipline and I'm looking behind me like, "Oh man, I, I gotta get back on the ropes," because, you know.

I, I like to say that I have, uh, rescue dyslexia. I, I, it does not come naturally to me. Like those, I don't have the abstract ability to like see these rope systems and be like, "Oh, yes." Like some of these guys are like Rain Man. They're like, "Yes, I'm gonna connect this and put, and put this here." And I'm like, I'm still back unpacking the bag.

I'm like, "What'd you guys say?" So, you know, I'm a different, I'm a different breed

TJ: Uh, see, it's funny. For me, it's the total opposite. Like, the rope stuff just, it clicked.

pj: Yeah

TJ: But the one that humbled me multiple times was swift

pj: Oh, yeah. I love surf water

TJ: It, oh, see? The, it, again, like it... That's why it takes a team,

right? Because you have the dudes that are, like, half Aquaman, and then you have the rope nerds, then you have the hazmat

pj: Dude, 

hazmat, hazmat's the dark arts, man. Like, I, I like,

TJ: Really?

pj: I, I like... Don't get me wrong, I like to say I'm hazmat curious. I enjoy hazmat. I just don't think we... We definitely don't do it enough. There's not, there's not enough of a push on our, at least in my department. And I try and I, I make sure that we are at least looking at it because guess who's gonna respond to it?

It's us. So we, we have to know. We have to. That was, that's something that, you know, just stays in my brain

TJ: You gotta, you gotta send your, your crew down to CDP if they're still running classes. I

don't 

pj: we're all... So my crew, we're all techs now. So

TJ: well,

pj: it, so that was, that was part of the push, and I was like, man. I was like, you know, if we're gonna be the rescue, like, we have to take this on. So I mean, w- that's part of the build-out process, you know, of where we have come from, is w- you know, half our guys are, are hazmat techs now.

Half our guys are SPRAT certified. Like, we have come a long way, and it's, it's awesome to see where we are at now and, and, you know, hopefully where we're going.

TJ: What's Sprat?

pj: Uh, Society Pra- Practitioners of Rope As- Access Technicians. So it's just basically, you know, the guys that climb, like, windmills. It's like an industrial rope certification.

Um, but it's kind of just like a, I'd say a cool guy cert at this point, but it was actually... You know, I've done rope tech. I've done all that stuff, and I, we just did SPRAT recently this, this past, uh, December, and it was, it was very humbling. I mean, there are some techniques in there that, that we as firefighters and, and tech rescue don't really train.

And this was all, you know, a four or five-day course where you are independently graded at the end, and there's, you know, there's kind of that pucker factor, you know, the night before. You got the, you got this outside person coming in to, to evaluate you, and you're like, "Oh, man," like, "I got these six or seven skills I gotta, I have to, you know, prove myself on."

And it was, uh... It's good. But it's good for you. That's how you, that's how you progress

TJ: Yeah, that sounds awesome,

pj: Yeah. Es- 

TJ: sounds 

pj: going as a group, there was like five or six of us, so I mean, it was a blast

TJ: Yeah, yeah. And, and seeking that training and that knowledge outside of the fire service, outside of this domain, I think it's eye-opening because some of these folks, they're doing that shit almost every single day. They're not waiting the next rope rescue training. They're out there and, you know, it's, it's almost like a second nature, and it's fascinating watching those experts perform in their field

pj: Yeah. And these guy-- I mean, these, and these are just everyday people, and that's their job, but they are just magnificent at it, and that's, that's why I think it's important to learn from those people and, and bring that into our training. Because, uh, in the end, I mean, th-that's who we're going to save.

You know, they got into that spot, and that's why I said SPRAT was so important. I said, "Look, that's industrial rope access. We are going to rescue that person, so we need to understand industrial rope access to see why they got themself in that position and how we can get them out." So that was, that was something that we've been driving at as well

TJ: Okay, so now we're talking about high-stake scenarios,

pj: Yeah

TJ: right? The industrial rope incident, the trench collapse, the structural collapse, whatever it might be. And I think we've all seen it, that decision-making can really fall apart under those really high-stress situations. A fire is one

pj: Yeah

TJ: or, you know, a MVC is one thing, those super dynamic, you know, low frequency,

pj: Yeah

TJ: scenarios are different. How do you train your decision-making skills for such scenarios? Because it's not like you can go out and go to the training academy and say, right, set me up with, you know,

pj: Yeah.

TJ: a silo engulfment."

pj: No, it's, you know, on... So I'll, I'll look at it from two sides. One being on the, the planning or operational side is as the captain, I've had to sort of take ... Or I came to the realization that, you know, I'm probably not the guy that's gonna be going over the edge, right? You know, I'm probably gonna be pulled into that operational or the operations role in sort of adv- advising command of, "Hey, this is what we need to do.

This is what's gonna happen." And that, that early on for me was kind of, kind of struck me because, you know, I'm, I'm the guy that likes to be out there and, and I was very early on in the rescue, I was, I was looking at my skill set and I was like, "Man, I can't do all this stuff. Like, how am I gonna get a company to do it?"

And it finally struck me that, you know, as the captain, it's not my job to be the guy that goes over the edge. My job is to actually understand and equip my people with the skills that will allow them to do that so I can, you know, so we can affect that rescue. And that, that was a, that was a moment for me.

That was a learning moment. So on that side, you know, my, my goal is to, is to know what my people are doing and a- advise on the other side that, "Hey, we can get this done. We don't have to, you know, whatever crazy plan command comes up with, you know, no, we can, we can make this happen." And, and there's, there's been some cool moments where we've actually done that, um, and I was happy to do that.

On the, on the flip side, my guys just need to be able to trust in me and, you know, that goes back to that team concept and I think we, I think we have done a great job in, in building that camaraderie amongst ourselves and that identity in our crew which has, has lent it to, you know, we're, we're not afraid to take anything on

TJ: That is your almost, your department approach to tech

pj: Yes

TJ: But at some point you said it's time to build something different, something bigger, and you ended up founding the New England Rescue Collaborative or the Collab.

pj: The collab.

TJ: The Collab. What, um, what led you there?

pj: Ah, so

TJ: Besides ADHD, you know,

pj: Well, okay. Well, you just don't want me to say that, and that would be a one-word answer, so that's fair. But no, it was... So, you know, we really had reached out as part of, as part of rebuilding the rescue, we started working regionally with different departments, and that sort of got us out of, you know, the, the funk of just being in the firehouse, dealing with all that crap, and people that didn't wanna train and whatnot.

So we started work- we started working with neighbors doing tech rescue, and it was... That was awesome. And so what really happened one day was there's a battleship down in, I believe it's South Carolina, and they do this big tech rescue event every year, and I saw that, and I was like, "Man." I was like, "That is really cool."

I was like, "I'd..." You know, "I'd love to go down and do something like that, but it's super expensive." And I was like, "There's no way the department's gonna send me down there." And I happened to be driving one day just down south of Boston, and I saw this sign, which I'd probably seen a million times, but it was a sign for a battleship, uh, the USS Salem, and that's located in Quincy, Mass.

So I started looking it up. I'm like, "Man, there's a battleship just south of Boston." And I got in touch with the, the, you know, the group that, that runs that. It's like a museum now. So we planned, uh, our own regional training exercise on that battleship, and it was just us and a couple other communities.

But it was a blast. We had an absolute blast, uh, just doing tech rescue stuff, and we were f- going down in the confined spaces in the ship, and we set up, like, a highline from the bridge to the bow. Uh, and that was sort of where I, I was behind the scenes putting all the pieces together for that, and I was like, "Hey, this is pretty cool that this worked out."

So I kept doing that on the regional side for our, you know, the Metro Boston team. Kept finding some different scenarios to put us in. And, you know, when it came back to the next year, we were back at the battleship, and I actually found us a sponsor who was gonna buy us lunch, and I thought that was the coolest thing in the world.

And I was like, I was like, "Man." I was like, "Someone's gonna buy us lunch. Like, what a scam." I was like, "I can't believe this." Uh, but it was just, it was... And so, you know, the event itself was a little bit bigger, and there was more people there. And, uh, again, that ADHD thing kicks in. Now, this is all... I'm not getting paid for any of this.

It's just I love, I love seeing the outcome and seeing the training that comes from it. So it was sort of after that that I was kinda like, " You know what? Maybe I should do..." I'm good at being the, the center access for putting things together. I said, "Hey, I can, I can take on this role of Sort of cultivating this experience and, and, you know, making something good come from it, and why not put my own name on it?

And there was, uh... Very early on, the idea for the New England Rescue Collaborative was actually a... was gonna be a spread gym. It was gonna be a fixed location, uh, outside Boston that, you know, we were gonna teach rope stuff, and we were going to invite training vendors to come and use the space, and that was really the collabora- the collaborative part.

'Cause I mean, I've trained all over, and there's a lot of training companies that are down in Connecticut, you know, outside of, of the region. I said, "Why don't we bring that here and get and spread that, that training around?" Uh, ended up losing a couple of the partners that we had originally started with, and it was just me, and I was kinda like, " I still wanna do something."

And I happened to just th- throw a couple emails out. We... I linked up with a, a general manager of, uh, a minor league baseball stadium up in New Hampshire, and I was just kinda like, "Hey, you know, mind if we come do some, you know, some rope rescue training up in the stadium?" And he was like, "Dude, absolutely."

And I was kinda like, "Oh, okay." So that was where the rescue lab was born, and that w- I, I, I mean, the, the genesis for that, I literally gave myself three months to put that thing together, and that was, like, nonstop every single day for three month. I don't know why I thought that was a good idea but I had, I had several training vendors come in.

Uh, we... So we had some rope, uh, rope classes. We had elevator. We had swiftwater. Uh, and that, that was exactly what I had been doing on my side, but now just in a regional setting, and it just sorta... It was perfect

TJ: How do the, uh, the attendees feel about that? What, what'd you hear afterwards?

pj: Man, I heard great stuff, and I was, you know, obviously I was worried. You know, my name is on this now, and I- I- I'm the kind of person where, like, I, I see something shiny and I'm like, "Dude, I need to buy that for the rescue lab." And like, my wife's like, " You're not gonna make any money." I was like, " Oh, I'm definitely not making any money," but like I just want everyone to have a great day.

And like going into that ex- I'd, I'd been to a bunch of conferences and like I know, I know what I like to see. So my goal that morning was just, hey, I want people to walk out of here and be like, "Hey, what a cool day." And that was what I heard afterwards. And I was, I was very excited about that. People were like, " Hey," like there was a lot of people from the New Hampshire area that like, "This is exactly what we need.

We don't get enough of this, this like tech rescue training. Like don't stop. Like make it two days next year. Make it three days next year." I'm like, oh my God. All right, at least I'll give myself a year to plan the next one and not three months. Um, but everybody, everybody walked away with a smile and that was, you know, that made me happy

TJ: Yeah, that's what it's all about. But here's a real question, and I'll start with a story. Years ago, my best buddy George and I were doing our like, off-duty overtime trench training. And by, like, 2:00 PM after lunch, we're just bored, right? Trench always devolved into

pj: Oh, yeah.

TJ: at each other about how things should be

pj: Yeah

TJ: we were in charge of the cut station. And because he and I have combined two brain cells, if we're

pj: Yeah, you are lucky

TJ: good day when the stars align, we we just decided to take a chainsaw and start cutting different sizes of four-by-fours into six-by-six, to the point that when they actually needed pieces, we're like, "Yeah, we don't have that."

They're like, "No, we need, like, a three-foot-long piece." We're like, " Oh, dude, no, we just made a bunch of, like, door chucks." They're like, "Are you fucking kidding me?" Like, we got bored and we were unsupervised.

pj: their fault. That's their fault. 

Right.

TJ: absolutely, 100%. Looking at it through that lens of straight-up easily distracted firefighters, and now you ha- like, you put them all together in one stadium and you have all these different scenarios.

Like, it could be a zoo or it could be a well-oiled machine. How

pj: Yeah

TJ: keep it from turning into absolute pandemonium?

pj: That's, uh, that is a great question. That was a fear, you know, how do you... And we had a lot going on that day, but I, I trusted that the vendors, the, you know, the training companies were going to put on their best, and I think they did. And that, you know, that, that is what keeps people engaged. I mean, 'cause I've been to those classes too, where you just, you sort of fade away and, you know, you start wandering and then, you know, you start cutting wood to, to weird sizes.

And, uh, that's, that's not what happened that day, and that... And I'm, I'm very thankful for that. I'm thankful for it was the engagement of the people that were there that made it a success, I think. It was, you know, the people who came and participated, they are what made that day a success

TJ: You also provide scholarships for specialized rescue education, right?

pj: Yeah, so that 

was, 

TJ: that

pj: that was an initiative. That initiative started... I've been, you know, I've been thinking about that for a while, and that came out of, or the goal of this was to sort of fund that. And I said, you know, I, I'm very lucky to be in the area that I'm in, in Metro Boston. We, we train all the t- I, I, I've climbed Ferris wheels.

You know, I've done crazy stuff, and like I've, I know how lucky I, I am to have those opportunities, and it is my goal to spread those opportunities to firefighters that, that want them but don't have the means to do so, whether their department won't send them, or, I mean, obviously this training can be very expensive.

You know, tech rescue training, you go to these classes. And I said, "If I can help out a little bit, that's awesome." So the New England Rescue Collaborative Foundation was an offshoot. Uh, we, and we just became a 501[c][3] organization, so I mean, that was really cool. And then thank you. Uh, and we sold a bunch of patches and stickers the day of the rescue lab, and like we raised like 5 or 600 bucks, and I was like, "Hey, man, like, we're gonna, we're gonna pick two people, and we're gonna open up, uh, the scholarships on our website, and we're gonna..."

I, I had a couple people sign up, and I said, "All right, pick two people, and we're gonna send you to, to rescue training somewhere." So we're gonna work with our, our training vendors, uh, and get them in a class. So I mean, that's... I'm super excited, uh, to get that initiative off the ground. That's, that's really like the basis of what I, I wanted to do, and that's spread the opportunity around.

TJ: Yeah, that's awesome because you're also building that next generation and you're, you're almost working on your replacement, if you will

pj: Yeah, and that's, uh, the succession piece in, in obviously in anything that you're doing is important because you are building, you know, the legacy of that program. And on the rescue side, just in my department, but, you know, in the, in the region, uh, y- we're building that program for somebody to take over someday.

So how are we gonna leave that program? And when those people take it over, is it gonna be a mess, or did we set them up for success? And that's, that's the goal

TJ: You have ADHD because not only are you dealing with your stuff at work, right? A captain's job. You're, got a family, you got after-school activities, you got jujitsu,

pj: Yeah

TJ: and somehow you also decided to start a podcast

pj: I, I've, uh, I mean, why sleep? Who need,

TJ: Yeah, why

pj: who needs to sleep?

TJ: You get a couple like Zs in there, here and there when they choke you out in jujitsu.

pj: I got the, uh, the Brazilian Christmas dreams. I'm good.

TJ: Chris. Tell me about the Rescue Lab podcast

pj: Uh, so that, that was something that, that came about. I, um, I'm part of the tech on something else here that I'm on the, the board for the Mass Association of Tech Rescue Specialists, and that, that's just an organization that, you know, tends to do what I'm trying to do regionally but for the state. And so from that, we do a lot of, uh, events around the state.

We've, we've trained at Fenway Park. Uh, we, we also trained at another battleship, and it's a great time to get to network with our regional training partners, our tech rescue partners from our regional teams. Uh, but with that and with all the conferences I've gone to and the people I've met, it was a way to sort of document the journey that, that I'm on in, in fact that I meet so many cool people that have different stories.

Uh, and it intersects with where tech rescue is, not just in the fire service, but around the country and around the world. So I mean, we've got people lined up that we talk to. I just talked to a structures specialist today from the Army Corps of Engineers, uh, and those guys do all, like the, the structural triage for the FEMA teams.

Um, I talked... Yeah, we talked to industrial firefighter, uh, tech rescue members. We tal- I got a guy lined up from the Disney Fire Department about how they do tech rescue down at Disney. I mean, it's just anywhere that you wouldn't think to find tech rescue, like I, I'm trying to sniff those out, and that really is for the people that don't get to do all the cool, you know, once in a lifetime gigs because it is so high risk, low frequency.

You know, it can be kind of demoralizing. But to hear people's stories of how they train, how they build their teams, and how they, you know, affect these rescues, I think it just gives it, it gives it, you know, lends something to somebody that, that gets to hear that

TJ: So speaking of those folks, and please give us names,

pj: Yes.

TJ: who are the people in, in the tech rescue world today that we should be paying attention to?

pj: Oh, man. Uh, so I just got off one of my, one of my probably favorite interviews so far. Logan Ledkins, uh, he's out of Longview, Texas, and he was... I mean, if you remember the story of the, the 900-foot, uh, tower rescue with the balloon that crashed into the tower, you know, he was sort of the operations guy for that, and, you know, his story was unbelievable.

And what, what they did in building their teams out were, was nothing s- short of spectacular. And why, you know, obviously, that was a great story, but what made me reach out to him in particular or, or their department was, I remember seeing the story on the news, and I was like, "Wow, that's really cool." But they interviewed one of the rescuers after, and he said, "Hey," he's like, "You know, I would- I'd really like to thank our training chief for supporting our tech rescue program and, you know, effectively letting this rescue happen."

And I, I think I did a double take 'cause I was like, man, I've never heard, you know, I've never heard that before. So that was of interest, and that, that really is what made me reach out. But it's guys like him that are pushing the boundaries every day. Like, hey, you... We're training every day, and that's, that's just it.

You gotta be in that mindset. Um, yeah, I just met, uh, well, I obviously have to mention Josh now, or it'd be weird, you know. But that, that's something cool that came out of this in the sense that, like, on, just on the collab side, not even the podcast side, like, meeting the people I've met along the way so far from the podcast or from the collab side, like, that has been one of the coolest parts of this whole journey, is just meeting new people, meeting like-minded people.

That is, that is the most important thing in the networking that happens, uh, on the tech... Well, not even the tech rescues. Obviously, you know, Josh was like a, the hose nerd. He's definitely a hose nerd. Now he's a Vulcan nerd. But meeting people that, that bring the same energy to not only tech rescue but to their jobs in general is what keeps us going, and that is, that's ultimately the most important thing

TJ: When you finally hang it up, when the last shift comes in and, and it's time to retire, what do you hope that people say you helped build? What, what-- Let's talk about legacy

pj: Yeah. Um, you know, on the department side, I have seen, I've personally seen the change, uh, the shift in attitude in how the rescue has been received, and I think, I, I hope that continues to build. Whether I'm... And I don't know my, I don't know where my fire department journey's gonna take me. I have no plans of, of leaving the captain spot right now just 'cause I'm having a great time.

Um, but, uh, now obviously things, all things don't last forever, so who knows? Maybe, maybe I get promoted or, or whatever. But I hope that whoever takes over just realizes the work that it, it took to, to get us to that point and continues on and, and, and just brings, and pushes that, you know, the rescue forward.

That's really what I hope in that sense. And whether anyone remembers me or not, you know, I could give two craps because they're gonna be like, "Oh, that asshole," you know, "I remember that guy." But on the, on the rescue side, I just hope that, I hope the legacy of the program lives on. That's what I want

TJ: Hell yeah Perfect closing question, and one that I'm hoping to catch you off guard. What is the one failure that you cherish the most?

pj: Hmm. The one failure I cherish the most

I, I think it, the most recent one would be setting out to start that, that Sprout Gym. You know, we were so hell-bound or hell-bent in opening that up, and there was a lot of excitement, and, you know, we were at the-- we were probably at the one-yard line with getting this thing going. I mean, we were looking to sign legal documents.

We were ready to go, and that, it just sort of imploded. And I, I did look at that as a failure, and I was very... I was bummed out. I was-- I remember, like, my wife was like, "You know, what's wrong with you?" I was like, "I just feel like, you know, sort of a dream had died." Uh, but I think as all things happen, as they should, you know, this is what came from that.

The Rescue Collaborative came from that. The r- uh, or excuse me. Yeah, the Rescue Lab and the New England Collaborative came out of that, and I think that is the way it should have been, and that, that failure led to this, and I think it's just starting. I think the, the journey for the Rescue Collab is, is really in its infancy, and I'm super excited to see where it goes next

TJ: i'm excited to have you on again in a year or so to see where things have gone

pj: I, I hope so, and I will have a back full of tattoos by that point.